zacariah88
Member
Okay I apologize did not mean to offend, i apologize to those who read it. Will be careful thank you, Birckjectivity.
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Are we saved by our own efforts or are we saved by God's efforts ?
- Thread starter zacariah88
- Start date
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
You have set up that question wonderfully, well.
And, Wonderfully Christ continues in that passage to tell us just that answer:
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
The words of His are of course there in this same sermon, the Sermon on the Mount -- Matthew chapters 5 through 7 we see when we look, and we can understand it includes all He instructed us to do, such as "love one another" (John 13, 14, 15), and very helpfully in John chapter 15 we then get the key to how we are to do these things (not from our own effort of ourselves, alone) -- how we can bear the good fruit, the 'fruit that will last'.
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other."
Bible Gateway passage: John 15:1-17 - New International Version
The Vine and the Branches - “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in...
InChrist
Free4ever
Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross (John 18:30) in payment for the sins of the world (John 3:15-17)…whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
As Jesus said…
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. ( John 5:24)
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
That wonderful John 5:24 verse, but it's not necessarily many that do that: "he who hears My word" -- to actually seek to listen to all that Christ said for us to hear!
Or even to be well on the way, even. Not many do that it seems. (It isn't just reading/listening to a few things Christ said for us to hear, nor even a good handful....)
But if we believe, we can because of faith want to hear all He taught for us to listen to and do. That's the key thing: to be on the way, continuing to want to hear His words.
So, "he who hears My word" seems to mean those who want to hear what He said to us, continually.
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zacariah88
Member
Don't be the goats who use violence to resolve promblems be the sheeps not the goats ;D.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
That's 100% right.
And there is more, more than only what you listed. Something crucial, Life or Death:
The Vine and the Branches
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
So, those that don't bear good fruit, God will remove from the Vine, and all such will in time be gathered with other useless withered branches and burned in the fire (as in the "second death", aka 'hell', which will "destroy body and soul" -- the eternal punishment of ceasing to exist, forever).
So, we must bear good fruit to make it into heaven, and that fruit comes entirely from Christ, through us abiding/remaining in Him.
It's cooperative then, not solely God alone, which determines our ultimate fate. He does everything that matters, but the individual that has faith can follow or fail to follow Christ, and if they fail to follow Him, be destroyed in hell. (see Matthew chapter 7, verses 12-end of chapter). To follow Him, we must listen to all He said to us, over time. John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
Patrick66
Member
You have set up that question wonderfully, well.
And, Wonderfully Christ continues in that passage to tell us just that answer:
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
The words of His are of course there in this same sermon, the Sermon on the Mount -- Matthew chapters 5 through 7 we see when we look, and we can understand it includes all He instructed us to do, such as "love one another" (John 13, 14, 15), and very helpfully in John chapter 15 we then get the key to how we are to do these things (not from our own effort of ourselves, alone) -- how we can bear the good fruit, the 'fruit that will last'.
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other."
Bible Gateway passage: John 15:1-17 - New International Version
The Vine and the Branches - “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in...www.biblegateway.com
Great post. Thank you.
Patrick66
Member
If you believe in Jesus, it is only because God permitted you to do so.
John 6:65 ESV
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father".
Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
John 6:65 ESV
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father".
Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
As I view it, Jesus wants everyone to be saved. It's God's desire and will that none should perish. We certainly cannot be saved without God involved in the process. God calls all but it is up to us to respond... it's like a man proposing to a woman: the proposal is on the table but the woman has to say "Yes!-- I do!"
So, when I gave my life and received the salvation that was purchased millenniums ago, I came on three points (paraphrased):
1) My life is going from bad to worse, I need to do something different
2) The Bible is either false or true. I will start with believing it is true and then I will test the sucker and I'll find out soon enough it is isn't.
3) It won't hurt me to confess Jesus as my Lord.
Obviously my heart was involved as I prayed in faith. But in 24 hours my marriage was turned right-side up. Listen ing to my wife's voice, I knew something had changed in her. Since I knew nothing about the Bible, I had no idea what really happened.
My sister-in-law also gave her life that day. Her reason - "I'm a rank sinner and I need forgiveness and salvation"
My wife saw the two of us go up front and went up from too. Her reason, "I haven't killed anyone, I don't lie, I'm a good person but if they are going up, I'm going up too!" -
All three of us had a life changing experience.