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Are red light cameras ethical?

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I suppose it's ethical if your sytem of ethics includes increasing revenue as a primary component.

As to these types of "moral dilemma" scenarios in general, I think the following video explains the differences between the two types of people who choose differently depending on their direct action required:

[youtube]KUsGDVOCLVQ[/youtube]
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I am with the majority opinion here: Throwing the switch is permissible. Throwing the fat man overboard is not.

Though I worded those as absolutes, of course, no moral dilemma really ever is. There is a lot of grey. Our ethical decisions are not made by formulaic routines, but by context and tiny value adjustments and split second reactions. Maybe there is an instance when throwing the fat man overboard is a reasonable choice, and throwing the switch isn't. Maybe sometimes either choice, either refraining from throwing the switch or throwing the switch, are equally permissible.
I can understand why one creates more gut revulsion from the other, but when I try to think about it impassionately, I see it as a matter of killing someone from a distance or killing them close up. In both cases, the death is foreseeable but not desireble.

I don't think that the needs of the majority should always trump the needs of the few. I don't think that's a hard and fast rule. Sometimes the majority should trump and sometimes they shouldn't. It's a case-by-case thing.

Regarding my use of "direct" involvement, generally, that's how we tend to assign responsibility.

I voted for Bush Jr his first term. Am I just as guilty of the torture of POWs as the person who ordered the torture or as the person who actually performed the torture? And yet, partly as a result of my action, people got tortured.

The further removed we are from the actual action that results in the ethically impermissible action, the less responsible for the action we are considered.

And it makes sense. Because we all set into motion things we don't fully control that cause things we don't fully intend.
I think that mixes in a few other issues. I assume that you didn't have reason to think that your vote would result in torture, so your lack of responsibility comes from that, I think, not the distance. If you could've clearly seen the chain of events that will lead to torture and chose it anyhow, then I'd say that you were responsible. Since you didn't, you weren't.

It's a given that in any ethical decision, you can only base that decision on the facts that you actually know.

After all, if the person who puts up red light cameras should be held responsible for the accidents it may cause, then what of the person who put up the traffic light to begin with? There has to be, and we tend to intuitively feel that there is, a reasonable limit to responsibility.
I agree that similar issues are involved in many decisions... and traffic signals can lead to increases in collisions if they're installed when they're not appropriate.

Like I touched on before, there are many engineering decisions where we pick winners and losers for the "greater good": we make things worse for a subgroup of people in order to make them better for everyone overall. In the course of reducing the risk of injury or death for everyone who drives through an intersection, we can increase the risk for some. Should we? Is it ethically "better" to leave the status quo as-is?
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I can understand why one creates more gut revulsion from the other, but when I try to think about it impassionately, I see it as a matter of killing someone from a distance or killing them close up. In both cases, the death is foreseeable but not desireble.
Why would you look at a moral question dispassionately? There is nothing dispassionate about morals. It would be like trying to appreciate art while setting aside your sense of beauty.

I think that mixes in a few other issues. I assume that you didn't have reason to think that your vote would result in torture, so your lack of responsibility comes from that, I think, not the distance. If you could've clearly seen the chain of events that will lead to torture and chose it anyhow, then I'd say that you were responsible. Since you didn't, you weren't.

It's a given that in any ethical decision, you can only base that decision on the facts that you actually know.
That's a good criticism of that particular example.

I should have picked one in which I knew a particular poor outcome might result. You claimed that I should be held responsible if I knew that torture would have resulted from my vote. But do you really hold that I would be held exactly as responsible as the people who are performing it?

This seems no different than the terrorist argument that there are no innocent civilians. All should be held accountable for the actions of their government or military.

I agree that similar issues are involved in many decisions... and traffic signals can lead to increases in collisions if they're installed when they're not appropriate.

Like I touched on before, there are many engineering decisions where we pick winners and losers for the "greater good": we make things worse for a subgroup of people in order to make them better for everyone overall. In the course of reducing the risk of injury or death for everyone who drives through an intersection, we can increase the risk for some. Should we? Is it ethically "better" to leave the status quo as-is?
I see nothing unethical about installing red light cameras if the data supports that they will prevent a greater number of accidents and fatalities, despite the fact that they may also cause a smaller number of accidents that normally wouldn't have occurred.

Either way accidents will occur. The only difference is that now there will be less of them. Moreover, there really is no "sub group" targeted since all drivers at some point will be in a position to be rear ended and t-boned. It's not like there is a separate group of drivers that are the only ones at risk to be rear-ended. And it's not like you are preferentially protecting a specific group of drivers at risk to be t-boned. You benefit all drivers and target none.

I think the much more interesting majority vs minority moral dilemma is the train switch, where you do directly choose a group of people to die by throwing the switch.

And as I said before, while it might be interesting to arm-chair philosophize about what we ought to do, I don't think there you can really say that in all situations it is more ethical to serve the needs of the majority over that of the minority (or the opposite: that it is more ethical to abstain from harming a minority).
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Why would you look at a moral question dispassionately? There is nothing dispassionate about morals. It would be like trying to appreciate art while setting aside your sense of beauty. [/qupte]
I think that in general, ethical decisions are best done when we mentally step back from the situation and try to examine things objectively. That could mean recognizing an ethical problem that doesn't cause me discomfort, or it could mean recognizing that a "gut feeling" that there's a difference between two things isn't based on anything of real consequence.

That's a good criticism of that particular example.

I should have picked one in which I knew a particular poor outcome might result. You claimed that I should be held responsible if I knew that torture would have resulted from my vote. But do you really hold that I would be held exactly as responsible as the people who are performing it?

This seems no different than the terrorist argument that there are no innocent civilians. All should be held accountable for the actions of their government or military.
I never said anything about "exactly" as responsible. In the case of a traffic engineering measure, I still think that the driver who disobeys the rules of the road and ends up in a collision is the person most responsible for what happened. Other people would have varying levels of responsibility depending on all sorts of factors.

I see nothing unethical about installing red light cameras if the data supports that they will prevent a greater number of accidents and fatalities, despite the fact that they may also cause a smaller number of accidents that normally wouldn't have occurred.

Either way accidents will occur. The only difference is that now there will be less of them.
Me too, but I've seen moral arguments that imply that it wouldn't be okay... for instance, the one behind Catholic "double effect" doctrine: it's not permissible to end an ectopic pregnancy with abortifacient drugs, but it's permissible to remove the fallopian tube and leave the embryo to die.

Moreover, there really is no "sub group" targeted since all drivers at some point will be in a position to be rear ended and t-boned. It's not like there is a separate group of drivers that are the only ones at risk to be rear-ended. And it's not like you are preferentially protecting a specific group of drivers at risk to be t-boned. You benefit all drivers and target none.
Yeah... the red light camera might not be the best example for that. Unfortunately, it's late and I can't think of a better example right now. :)

I think the much more interesting majority vs minority moral dilemma is the train switch, where you do directly choose a group of people to die by throwing the switch.

And as I said before, while it might be interesting to arm-chair philosophize about what we ought to do, I don't think there you can really say that in all situations it is more ethical to serve the needs of the majority over that of the minority (or the opposite: that it is more ethical to abstain from harming a minority).
Right. In fact, at that same hypothetical intersection, when trying to decide the traffic signal timings, the normal objective is to minimize average delay... but while keeping the delay for each movement below a certain threshold. For instance, even if giving more green time to the north-south phases will decrease average delay, if that would mean that the east-west movements will experience level of service "F", then you don't assign that green time to the east-west phases.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So... with all that in mind, are red light cameras ethical? Is it ethical to increase risk for one group of people in order to decrease average risk overall?
I'd need to be more knowledgeable about all facts associated with red light cameras to have a truly informed opinion on the matter. From an ethics perspective just going by what you said in your post, yes I think it would be ethical for the engineers to create the situation that has the lower overall risk of serious injury, which would mean using the cameras.

I'm sure all sorts of systems and products have various trade-offs where certain areas of safety are maximized at the cost of slightly hurting the safety statistics of other areas. It's not really a matter of targeting certain "groups of people" either; it's not like one group sharing a demographic variable (like race, sex, etc.) is being hurt at the benefit of another group with a different demographic variable. At an intersection, any given person that uses the system is involved in multiple facets of it; they go through the part where they're at risk for a rear-end collision and they also go through the part where they're at risk for a side impact. So even the "group of people" that had their rear-end collision risk increased actually had their overall risk reduced as well.

I imagine that even having a traffic light at the intersection at all, while vastly improving the safety of the intersection, probably results in some injuries that wouldn't have occurred if it was just a free for all with no traffic signals or signs.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I get a warm fuzzy feeling inside when someone runs a red light, especially at full speed, where there is a camera, and I see the strobe flash. :) I have yet to see an accident because someone slammed on their brakes because there is a camera. Rather, people know they are there and run red lights anyway. Around here an accident is more likely to happen because someone jumps a light. Major intersections around here have double reds. There is a second or two overlap of the red lights. Even then that is no safety against light-jumpers.

There's no reason that a driver can't slow down, even on a green when he or she sees from a distance the light has been green for some time. Uh hello, it's going to turn yellow soon... then red... slow down. I'll admit to my share of running yellow lights when I've gotten up to the intersection, had time to stop, but the person behind me was damn near in the bed of the truck. If I stopped, they would have been. That's justifiable for running a yellow light, not red. I got a T bar for the trailer hitch, so if someone hits me, they **** up their grill and just my $50 T bar. It's win-win. :D But I digress...

And as for the "unconstitutional" issue, that's bogus, because you get your day in court to face your "accuser". Not every red light run is an automatic ticket. The still photos and video are reviewed by several levels of civilian as well as police personnel, then a determination is made whether to issue a ticket or not. That depends on the circumstances... traffic, road and weather conditions are all accounted for.

And don't get me started on Right Turn on Red... that is one of the most stoopid things anyone ever came up with. I don't know how many times I've had a green left turn arrow and someone on the opposite side turns right on red in front of me.

Yes, traffic cameras FTW (For The Win). :yes:
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I think stop light cameras are an invasion of privacy and empower dictators. Plus, they aren't being properly implemented. In Virginia in the City of Stoplights (Chesapeake) for example, the stoplights are mainly a way to keep unwanted persons out of the city. Gazing into people's vehicles, the computers identify anyone who is on the wanted list such as a potential terrorist. In the near future it could be anyone who is a Democrat or doesn't have a pro-Bush bumper sticker or in any way doesn't believe in Fox news. It could also be anyone who doesn't like Obama or who likes McCain or who has "Jesus" on their bumper. The damn cameras are dangerous. Next they've started adding drones. Yes, flipping drones that spy on everyone.

Rev. Rick said:
I my neck of the woods, we have caution lights ahead of some intersections that tell us the light is about to change. These have saved many lives and not took a single dollar out of anyones pocket with bogus red light tickets in the mail.
Good point.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I think stop light cameras are an invasion of privacy and empower dictators. Plus, they aren't being properly implemented. In Virginia in the City of Stoplights (Chesapeake) for example, the stoplights are mainly a way to keep unwanted persons out of the city. Gazing into people's vehicles, the computers identify anyone who is on the wanted list such as a potential terrorist. In the near future it could be anyone who is a Democrat or doesn't have a pro-Bush bumper sticker or in any way doesn't believe in Fox news. It could also be anyone who doesn't like Obama or who likes McCain or who has "Jesus" on their bumper. The damn cameras are dangerous. Next they've started adding drones. Yes, flipping drones that spy on everyone.

:facepalm:
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
I also did not know that red light cameras had any effect on accidents. The main thing that concerns me about red light cameras is that they almost seem to be an invasion of privacy. But then again, that's just my own personal opinion.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I also did not know that red light cameras had any effect on accidents. The main thing that concerns me about red light cameras is that they almost seem to be an invasion of privacy. But then again, that's just my own personal opinion.

Government doesn't want to watch just snap shots if your breaking the law. The yellow light laws are very lenient.
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
Government doesn't want to watch just snap shots if your breaking the law. The yellow light laws are very lenient.

Yeah I see what you mean. Perhaps they are not an invasion of privacy. I am really not sure.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Yeah I see what you mean. Perhaps they are not an invasion of privacy. I am really not sure.

For them to know any time we go against the law can seem rather intrusive but at the same time they're allowed to know.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
As long you don't have to pay the tickets and it leaves no record, I'm fine with them.
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
For them to know any time we go against the law can seem rather intrusive but at the same time they're allowed to know.

Well the thing about them that concerns me is that these cameras would be taking a picture of your car which would show that you were in a certain place at a certain time. That is where my concern about the invasion of privacy comes from. I wouldn't be concerned about this if it was guaranteed that these pictures are permanently deleted on a regular basis. Also, just so you know, this concern of mine is very minor. I'm just somewhat picky about things which I think may be a governmental invasion of privacy. :p
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
Well the thing about them that concerns me is that these cameras would be taking a picture of your car which would show that you were in a certain place at a certain time. That is where my concern about the invasion of privacy comes from. I wouldn't be concerned about this if it was guaranteed that these pictures are permanently deleted on a regular basis. Also, just so you know, this concern of mine is very minor. I'm just somewhat picky about things which I think may be a governmental invasion of privacy. :p

Lets just say if you're doing nothing wrong you won't get photos taken at all :p
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
darkendless said:
Lets just say if you're doing nothing wrong you won't get photos taken at all :p
It means you won't be charged. It doesn't mean you won't be photographed.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
The cameras snap photos only when the two sensors on either side of the intersection are tripped. If you are in the intersection, crossing it (i.e. ran a yellow light) when the light turns red, no snapshot. If you enter the intersection when the light is red, but back up or don't go any further, no snapshot. No municipality has the resources to be snapping photos randomly and have civilian and police personnel sit there like a spider waiting for a fly to happen by so they can issue a ticket. However, police do random plate checks on the road. Want to challenge them? How do you know you're being checked (or photographed if you believe that... prove it). Let's get real.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Municipalities may now use traffic cameras to monitor faces using face recognition software, and they do. It aids in catching criminals on the loose. You can get face recognition software on your computer, or even compile your own using open source software. Traffic cams have a high enough resolution to accomplish this, and traffic cams are electronic. There's no reason to turn them off. Why draw the line there, though? Wouldn't we all be safer if everyone were monitored at all times everywhere they went? Imagine how many lives you could save then.
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
For them to know any time we go against the law can seem rather intrusive but at the same time they're allowed to know.

Well yeah I agree that they are allowed to know. I guess part of my issue is that I think it would be better for them to just have more police officers out so they can catch people who break the law. I am just not all that comfortable with traffic cameras. And I'll be completely honest with you, I am not a person who violates traffic law. I always go under the speed limit and the only time I go a few miles over is if its completely by accident or I am not paying attention. I almost never go more than 5 mph over the speed limit and every time I do, its either a dire emergency and I'm on the way to the emergency room or it was an accident due to carelessness. I'm not saying these things out of pride, I'm saying them out of honesty. I mention that I am scrupulous in obeying the traffic laws because I want to ensure that you know I'm not against traffic cameras because I break traffic laws. I am just personally against them because I feel like it could potentially be a very minor invasion of privacy. I guess that's just the paranoid part of me. I have a paranoia of being spied upon.

It means you won't be charged. It doesn't mean you won't be photographed.

Are you absolutely sure? How can you be absolutely sure that these traffic cameras aren't taking pictures of just about everyone or something? I'm sorry if that question sounds ridiculous but I do have this paranoia of being spied upon and so I guess you could say that I personally place a very high value on my privacy.

Finally, I do want to mention that I am not advocating the banning of traffic cameras or anything. I am just saying that personally, they bother me in a very slight way and I hope they never get installed in my small town because it would just make me nervous when I'm driving. So basically, its just a comfort issue for me I guess you could say.
 
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