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Are diests really different from the Christian view?

Rex

Founder
All this talk about who wrote the constitution and what are they, and what affiliation are the founding fathers.

Of course we recognize them as diests which just means they didn't think the bible was holy and they didn't believe in the trinity but they still had the Christian view with the Christian God right?

If that is the case then the diests who founded the US was based on Christian Views.


right?
 

true blood

Active Member
Exactly. Diest believe in the existance of a deity. Christianity is a way of living based on the principles of Jesus Christ which we hope is acceptable to that deity(not the man, Jesus Christ). That's my view. I've never associated myself with any denomination or religion however I view myself sorta like a "Christian Deist"
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Yes.

From the Deism thread:


Deism is belief in a God or first cause based on reason rather than faith, distinguishing it from theism. Deism is usually synonymous with "natural religion" in 18th century Enlightenment writings. Deism originated in 17th century Europe, gaining popularity in the 18th century Enlightenment especially in America as a modernist movement inspired by the success of the scientific method. Deists emphasize the exclusive application of reason and personal experience to religious questions. Deism is concerned with those truths which humans can discover through a process of reasoning, independent of any claimed divine revelation through scripture or prophets. Most Deists believe that God does not interfere with the world or create miracles.

Deism was founded on the belief that the universe was created by a God who then made no further intervention in its affairs, often expressed by the metaphor of the "Divine Watchmaker" who created a mechanism so perfect as to be self-regulating.


The text I haved bolded clearly show that Christian and Deistic views are not alike at all.
 
At any rate, our Founding Fathers did not want any one particular religion to be part of our government...they wanted a secular government that follows the will of the people, but at the same time guarantees certain basic rights no matter what the will of the people might be at any given time.
 

true blood

Active Member
No they didn't. They wanted all religion to be a part of this nation. The “wall of separation between church and state” that Jefferson described was a wall to separate the government from ever interfering with our religious freedoms, not a wall to separate religious expression from our schools, courthouses, and other public places.

Early U.S. courts clearly understood Jefferson’s intent when he wrote about ‘a wall of separation between church and state’. In fact, unlike recent court cases, they quoted his letter in its entirety, including the full context. Today, only 8 words are quoted from his letter. In 1878 there was a case called ‘Reynolds vs. United States’. In this case, in which polygamy was condemned by the courts, the argument was that government was interfering with religious expression. In other words, the U.S. government had no right to prohibit polygamy, since it was a form of religious expression by a certain group. It was understood that the government could only interfere when overt acts against peace and good order were occurring. In other words, such things as human sacrifice and polygamy could not “hide” under the pretense of religious freedom. I have already seen that the founding fathers, and the entire nation never dreamed that a future generation would twist the meaning of the 1st Amendment so that it would be used to remove the freedom of religious expressions such as prayer, Bible reading, etc. from public schools. It is obvious that they encouraged such things.

Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, William Rehnquist said:

“There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation”

He also said:

“ - - the greatest injury of the “wall” notion is its mischievous diversion of judges from the actual intentions of the drafters of the Bill of Rights - - - The “wall of separation between church and State” is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It
should be frankly and explicitly abandoned.”
 

Rex

Founder
TrueBlood I am going to have to disagree. Being a Deist means you have the belief that "organized" religion is not for you even though Jefferson and others believed in the "Christian" God.

Saying that of course he would want a seperation of church and state from showing religious expression.

If not for that then for biases. If I was muslim and I got tried in a Court with a large picture of Jesus on the wall then I would say my trial is biased to the Christian view.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
christians beleive in Jesus Christ.. Deists do not....

therefore IMHO Deist are not christians.

90% of religions belive in a deity or 'god' or what-have-you....

wa:do
 

true blood

Active Member
If someone's religious expression is against peace and good order, then yes it should be removed. If you feel the government should interfer with my "religious" freedom that isn't against peace and good order,well, more power to you and the government.
 
I don't think the government should stop people from praying...but I don't think the government should promote any religion above any others, either. Students should be allowed to pray in school, read their Bibles, etc. etc. as long as it doesn't interfere with the curriculum. That's fine by me. I just don't think the government should have its employees (i.e. teachers) indoctrinating kids into any certain religion (Christianity, Islam, etc)--our government should never promote one religion over another, and public schoolteachers are representatives of our government.
 

true blood

Active Member
Maize said:
true blood, what is your definition of a deist?


A person who believes in the existance of a deity who created the universe but allows his creation, namely the people of the planet, to use their free will to operate.
 

DrM

Member
Rex_Admin said:
All this talk about who wrote the constitution and what are they, and what affiliation are the founding fathers.

Of course we recognize them as diests which just means they didn't think the bible was holy and they didn't believe in the trinity but they still had the Christian view with the Christian God right?

If that is the case then the diests who founded the US was based on Christian Views.


right?
Deism is belief in God. This belief can be exercised in many different ways including Christianity. I know Deists today who choose to worship in various religious places including Christian, Universalist, Judaism, et. al. So, some do believe the bible is/was holy and some of the founding fathers worshipped in this belief.

"Deism," as regarded by the founding fathers is tautamount to "Catholic", or universal rather than a reference to a particular system of worship such as Christianity.
 

DianeVera

Member
Rex_Admin said:
TrueBlood I am going to have to disagree. Being a Deist means you have the belief that "organized" religion is not for you even though Jefferson and others believed in the "Christian" God.
Why do you insist that the God of Deists is the "Christian" God? As someone else detailed earlier in this thread, Deist theology is radically different from Christian theology. For example, Deists don't believe in the Bible as divine revelation -- that's a crucial difference

SOME Deists may identify as "Christian" in the sense of agreeing with the ethical teachings of Jesus, but the ethical teachings of Jesus are not the main point of Christianity in general, nor is acceptance of the ethical teachings of Jesus intrinsic to Deism. Moreover, to the extent that some Deists do agree with any of the teachings of Jesus, they do so from a humanistic standpoint, not a divine command theory of morality.
 

DrM

Member
If you are truly a Deist, there is but one God which is the God of creation, reason and nature. The absence of dogma does not negate the validity of God. The absence of dogma brings reason to "belief".

This does not indicate that Deists are absent of ethics. We are more prone to ethical behavior because we do not have our minds in the heavens but on our fellow man.
 

scitsofreaky

Active Member
I think that the deists of the revolutionary era, or more specifically the founding fathers, were influenced more by christianity then we are today. In fact, Jefferson believe that Jesus was a deist who was trying to show the Jews the errors of their beliefs. But today it is debated among deists if Jesus even existed.
DrM gave a very good definition of deism (have some frubals) which encompasses all of the deists. Deism is actually a very diverse group of people, and no one seems to agree 100% with someone eles' beliefs.
 

DeadVegas

Member
I'm not certain that I am a diest. I have a very unique view and I've been looking for help "naming" my religion. I believe in God. I believe Jesus was most likely the son of God. I don't know for certain but it seems right to me. But the kicker is that I believe a lot of the Bible is false. I believe it was written by man as an attempt to create a book about God that people could follow, but in the process they put a lot of their own beliefs in it. So, I don't take the Bible as a perfect book but some of it I do agree with.

I would guess this makes me a Christian but most Christians around me think I'm out of my mind. If only they knew skeletons didn't have brains.
 

Unphased

New Member
A Methodist or maybe a Christian Deist. I follow Jesus' teachings, but I believe the Bible has been twisted and manipulated. I believe in a human Jesus rather than a divine Jesus. I don't believe that God directly intervenes in day to day life.
 
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