Are Classrooms Necessary?

[Polymath257]

Do you feel the brick and mortar schools are a necessity or should we maybe invest in online schools?

I feel that health, education and welfare are important to any civilized country. My concern however is the cost.

IMO, brick and mortar schools plus educational staff are costly. Is there a benefit to keeping them around?

You could educate the people at a far less cost using online schooling. Less staff, more automation, more consistency in the curriculum.

Or is there something lacking in this scenario?

More automation is certainly NOT the answer. if anything, a *good* online education would require *more* staff and a more highly educated staff.

The difficulty is that passing standardized tests is NOT the same as education. Automation may be able to produce students that can do a multiple choice test, but what we need is more people who can think through things.

And, unfortunately, learning 'at their own pace' typically means 'not learning at all'. It is a good thing to have someone who understands the material be a guide to learning the material. Call them mentors, teachers, or whatever, having someone who knows what is going on can vastly ease the difficulty of learning something. There are very few people who can discover the quadratic formula on their own, let alone particle physics, or the periodic table. And we need MORE people who know these things and deeply understand them.

Now, does the educational system need to be reformed? Yes, very much so. The current system is seldom focused on understanding as opposed to rote memorization (although that is also required at times). It neglects repetition as a way to get good at skills. Yes, I know doing 500 division problems is boring: so is shooting baskets for someone who isn't good at it--but you can't *get* good without some repetition.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So it's not really necessary for the education part of it. You want to keep a social interactive area for the kids, that's fine. We could make use of multipurpose buildings and social activities directors.

Those are already practically non-existent in small town and rural places. Part of the reason places like Indiana has an issue with drugs, because there isnt much else to do.

 

[sun rise]

Yes, many of my classes were unimaginably dull and depressing, but that mainly depended on the teacher.

We should be paying teachers what they are truly worth not treating them as glorified burger flippers and baby sitters. We've seen how it's possible for an outstanding teacher or principle to turn a classroom or school totally around.

So I guess the answer is that we shouldn't be looking at it as a one-size-fits-all solution.

That's a key point. Any statement of one-size is automatically wrong.

 

[Nakosis]

Those are already practically non-existent in small town and rural places. Part of the reason places like Indiana has an issue with drugs, because there isnt much else to do.

Also no guarantee of the quality of education they are receiving. Bad news all around.

 

[joe1776]

They are worse because they create sexually frustrated people and failing marriages, unstable for children.

You have no basis for that claim since no one has counted the failing marriages and screwed-up kids both before and after the Internet. It's not possible to do so.

It is. As I already said, it leads to more casual hookups and less family-building and long term planning, because a new partner is just a click away if you really want it.

I suspect that most people are emotionally unsuited to a lifetime monogamous relationship. So, the trend you see away from marriage is favorable for general mental health, IMO.

 

[sun rise]

A separate point is that schools should be teaching reasoning ability and facts. The best schools also teach character by example. Character is taught by modeling. That should happen at home and be reinforced at school. But that's not the reality all too often today.

 

[Rival]

I suspect that most people are emotionally unsuited to a lifetime monogamous relationship. So, the trend you see away from marriage is favorable for general mental health, IMO.

Oh you're one of those people.

 

[Nakosis]

We should be paying teachers what they are truly worth not treating them as glorified burger flippers and baby sitters. We've seen how it's possible for an outstanding teacher or principle to turn a classroom or school totally around.

I agree. We should take these outstanding teachers and principles and put them in charge of a nationwide education system so everyone can benefit from their guidance.

 

[joe1776]

It was taught to me. It was taught to Sunstone. It was taught to many people.

I'll accept that claim. That makes two of you. Now how does that counter my claim that debate isn't generally part of the educational instruction in the USA?

It's the fact that debating online lacks the human factor.

I don't know what that means.

 

[sun rise]

I agree. We should take these outstanding teachers and principles and put them in charge of a nationwide education system so everyone can benefit from their guidance.

The best teachers I know go far beyond something that comes from a national or state system. They respond genuinely to wha happens in the classroom and teach fundamental ethics/morality by their nature.

That can be encouraged and supported but is not subject to a national system of "guidance".

 

[Nakosis]

The best teachers I know go far beyond something that comes from a national or state system. They respond genuinely to wha happens in the classroom and teach fundamental ethics/morality by their nature.

That can be encouraged and supported but is not subject to a national system of "guidance".

It actually can be a very interactive experience online. Common answers to common questions. Moderated forums where discussion can take place. Counseling and individual help when required. All overseen by the best teachers we have. Available to the rich and poor alike.

 

[joe1776]

More automation is certainly NOT the answer. if anything, a *good* online education would require *more* staff and a more highly educated staff.

Netflix could produce a series explaining physics that millions could stream for years to come. It could give expert instruction that would satisfy the need for all but the few students interested in a career in the field. Moreover, any adult who wanted a refresher course could stream it at any time.

The difficulty is that passing standardized tests is NOT the same as education. Automation may be able to produce students that can do a multiple choice test, but what we need is more people who can think through things.

And you think the current system can produce those people? I think those people who can think things through are born able to do it.

And, unfortunately, learning 'at their own pace' typically means 'not learning at all'.

How did you come up with that? You have a high math aptitude. Have you not sat in a class with 30 students and waited bored for the slowest kid in the class to catch up with a concept you understood in the first five minutes? If the instruction was delivered to you individually, you could have completed a few test questions to show you understood the concept and then moved on to your next assignment.

There are very few people who can discover the quadratic formula on their own, let alone particle physics, or the periodic table. And we need MORE people who know these things and deeply understand them.

No we don't need more people. We need highly qualified mathematicians to make videos, or power point presentations, or animations that will explain the concept to millions.

 

[joe1776]

The best teachers I know go far beyond something that comes from a national or state system. They respond genuinely to wha happens in the classroom and teach fundamental ethics/morality by their nature.

That can be encouraged and supported but is not subject to a national system of "guidance".

You're right that a national system can't implement great teaching but I don't think you understand why it's not possible.

Some years back, the Federal Government spent a ton of money on research. They found three programs that were having good results.

They offered teachers in several school systems the right to choose which of the three programs they wanted to test . They were given instruction on the program of their choice.

After a trial period, the Rand Corporation studied the results and found no change in any of the systems. They were all doing things just as they had before.

The problem is that the USA doesn't have an education system. We have more than 4,000 of them. The federal government is powerless to implement even the most obvious necessary reforms.

 

[Polymath257]

Netflix could produce a series explaining physics that millions could stream for years to come. It could give expert instruction that would satisfy the need for all but the few students interested in a career in the field. Moreover, any adult who wanted a refresher course could stream it at any time.

Which is fine as an introduction. But it cannot answer questions the students have, nor can it judge when to go into more detail.

And you think the current system can produce those people? I think those people who can think things through are born able to do it.

And a good part of the educational system is dealing with the rest. Those that cannot get the required information from a book or video, those that simply don't study anything unless they have the structure of a course.

How did you come up with that? You have a high math aptitude. Have you not sat in a class with 30 students and waited bored for the slowest kid in the class to catch up with a concept you understood in the first five minutes? If the instruction was delivered to you individually, you could have completed a few test questions to show you understood the concept and then moved on to your next assignment.

Except that what you propose would not do that. it would give exactly the same lecture to everyone, no matter what their abilities or previous knowledge. To deliver that individual instruction would take *many* more highly qualified teachers to answer millions of questions.

No we don't need more people. We need highly qualified mathematicians to make videos, or power point presentations, or animations that will explain the concept to millions.

Except that only goes to the most shallow level. Online videos are fine for getting a low level understanding. And, if supplemented with good textbooks and a lot of practice can do some good. But the problem isn't a lack of highly qualified people making videos. The problem is that people think that by watching a video they are getting a real education. In fact, unless the students *do problems themselves*, a video is little more than entertainment.

And this is just as true for crafts and tradework as it is for math. Watching a video has been shown to give people a false sense of understanding and a feeling they 'could' do it if they tried. The reality is usually quite different. Watching the video more times tends to increase the disconnect with reality in this.

 

[Milton Platt]

Do you feel the brick and mortar schools are a necessity or should we maybe invest in online schools?

I feel that health, education and welfare are important to any civilized country. My concern however is the cost.

IMO, brick and mortar schools plus educational staff are costly. Is there a benefit to keeping them around?

You could educate the people at a far less cost using online schooling. Less staff, more automation, more consistency in the curriculum.

Or is there something lacking in this scenario?

I don't know if they are necessary, but they are useful.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Also no guarantee of the quality of education they are receiving. Bad news all around.

While I was in public school I actually got to go to one of the better performing schools in the state. However, some ofthe neighboring schools were on the low performance end of the scale.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Do you feel the brick and mortar schools are a necessity or should we maybe invest in online schools?

I feel that health, education and welfare are important to any civilized country. My concern however is the cost.

IMO, brick and mortar schools plus educational staff are costly. Is there a benefit to keeping them around?

You could educate the people at a far less cost using online schooling. Less staff, more automation, more consistency in the curriculum.

Or is there something lacking in this scenario?

Good teachers are worth a lot more than the type of model you are taking about here. So I would strongly argue that some level of bricks and mortar is required.
However, at the same time I would argue that the current model is fairly archaic, and needs a complete revisit.

In terms of investment, the US spends 5% of their GDP on education currently. That's pretty low by global standards. (Apologies, I'm assuming this is US centric, although the issue is consistent through the first world at a macro level)

Taking that same funding...or even more (eg. 7-8% is normal in Scandanavia, 5.5-6% across Australia, NZ, UK, France) but spending it in radically different ways is what I'd be suggesting.

Looking for ways to cut expenditure in this area doesn't seem sensible to me.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

What supplies and equipment would be needed? Certainly with the money saved we could provide lunches, meals delivered directly to the home.

Who is teaching the kids? Actively, I mean.

 

[rosends]

Do you feel the brick and mortar schools are a necessity or should we maybe invest in online schools?

I feel that health, education and welfare are important to any civilized country. My concern however is the cost.

IMO, brick and mortar schools plus educational staff are costly. Is there a benefit to keeping them around?

You could educate the people at a far less cost using online schooling. Less staff, more automation, more consistency in the curriculum.

Or is there something lacking in this scenario?

If you start from the ground up, recruiting a very different type of person as the educator, establish a different and well founded infrastructure, rework an entire system of curricular construction and assessment, filtering up to a change in college admissions and higher education, and probably shift the workforce to a style that leverages online/distance learning even in fields where such an approach is impractical, then maybe you could have a coherent system. But probably not.

I have been studying this and doing it for a long time and I'm pretty open minded and tech savvy and distance learning is less effective, less structured and less cohesive and the flaws in the system are insurmountable.

 

[Shad]

More automation is certainly NOT the answer. if anything, a *good* online education would require *more* staff and a more highly educated staff.

The difficulty is that passing standardized tests is NOT the same as education. Automation may be able to produce students that can do a multiple choice test, but what we need is more people who can think through things.

And, unfortunately, learning 'at their own pace' typically means 'not learning at all'. It is a good thing to have someone who understands the material be a guide to learning the material. Call them mentors, teachers, or whatever, having someone who knows what is going on can vastly ease the difficulty of learning something. There are very few people who can discover the quadratic formula on their own, let alone particle physics, or the periodic table. And we need MORE people who know these things and deeply understand them.

Now, does the educational system need to be reformed? Yes, very much so. The current system is seldom focused on understanding as opposed to rote memorization (although that is also required at times). It neglects repetition as a way to get good at skills. Yes, I know doing 500 division problems is boring: so is shooting baskets for someone who isn't good at it--but you can't *get* good without some repetition.

Some of the online systems have already addressed a few of your issues or there is an easy method to resolve problems. Access to online courses can have a threshold of NC or Fs before one is sent to a physical school. Learning centers provide access to teachers without the normal class lesson format. Software can handle text input for courses that use numbers, letters and symbols (math, chemistry, physics) Software has issues with report/essay formats. Lessons are in recorded video which will reduce staff.

Look up the Distant Education system in Canada. It will cover far more than I could in a post. If you have some questions just ask.

Productive students, or lack of, will be a huge issues. I do not think a majority of students in most grades are going to be suitable and/or have the will power to even handle online courses. Too many variables from family to financial to ruin it for an individual. However use of some systems online could be reformed to replace existing systems in-class. Up here at least most students have an ipad issued by the school.