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Are Christians better than their God?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by bartdanr, Aug 30, 2005.

  1. bartdanr

    bartdanr Member

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    Hi All,

    Some people decided to reject Christianity because of what they perceived as hypocrisy in the Church. However, my questioning with Christianity was in spite of what I saw as a group of people who, for the most part, were good, honest and loving. (Sure, not perfect--who is? And hypocrisy is a common human failing; the greater the striving, the greater the apparent hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is the homage vice pays to virtue--and how sad it is if we no longer believe in virtue at all!)

    No, my questioning of Christianity was because of what I believed the pages of the Bible showed about the character of the God that was the center of worship.

    One of the biggest--if not the biggest--problems I have with the Biblical God is commands like 1 Sam 15:3: "Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." Also, God testing a man to see if he was willing to kill his own child to prove he would follow God no matter what.

    Here is the paradox: most Christians I have met (and I have met many, from many denominations) are very loving and are horrified at the death of any child. Most that I have met are strongly pro-life. And yet they worship a God who commanded people to kill children.

    How do Christians deal with such a paradox? I, for one, could never follow--let alone worship--a God who orders the killing of children. To me, it is reviving Molech worship (what an image! God condemned the Canaanites for sacrificing their children to Molech, so his solution was to have the Israelites kill the Canaanite children!)

    No temporary suffering by a member of the Trinity seems to be adequate to cover this astonishing nature. If the killing of children is not evil, then what could ever be evil?

    Peace
     
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  2. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    Have you ever heard of the theory of demiurge? It constitutes one of the basic tenets of my belief system - Gnosticism.

    Basically it suggests that the god of the old testament is not God, but mearly a flawed and arrogant being that believes it is God. For me it explains why the god of the Torah acts in the ways that he does.
     
  3. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    Quite simple for me.
    The old testament got it wrong.
    Jesus Gave Christians a new covernant and taught about a God of Love and Forgiveness. and how to live our lives.

    Terry
    _____________________________
    Blessed are those who bring peace, they shall be children of God
     
  4. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Mohammad did the same thing 600 plus years after Jesus does that make the NT wrong?
     
  5. Mike182

    Mike182 Flaming Queer

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    quite true

    throughout the old testiment we see god doing unloving things either by the power of his spirit of through other people (my favourite verse being 2kings2:23-25)

    but christ came to show us that god is all loving and not a violent and peeved off maniac with a lightning pointer!

    C_P
     
  6. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    *Rushing past Rob's post (to which I cant think of an answer)* I agree with Terry and you, C.P . For me, this has been a very fast learning curve; I may have had some memories of Christiany from when I was in my early teenage years, but I knew very little - somehow my wierd schooling experience left a gaping hole in religious education.:eek:
     
  7. bartdanr

    bartdanr Member

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    Hi Halcyon, thanks for your post.

    Actually, that's a lot in line with my current thought--that there are beings who consider themselves "gods", but are unworthy of the title. Yet we, as fallible and finite human beings are often easily swayed by spiritual special effects, and we worship something simply because it's stronger than us--and yet we often don't wonder...

    "Why does God need a starship?" (Trekkies might get the reference);)

    Peace
     
  8. bartdanr

    bartdanr Member

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    Thanks to the Christians who posted.

    I can see the appeal of such an approach (the OT was wrong, NT is right), and yet I'm troubled that Jesus seemed to always want to identify with the God of the Old Testament. Why didn't he simply say "that 'god' wasn't my Father--my Father is love!"?

    Besides, the hellfire and damnation in the Bible (which is mostly absent from the Old Testament) often comes from Jesus' lips (or from the pen of John the Revelator). It seems to me that both testaments have some serious difficulties IMO.

    Peace
     
  9. Sooperhotshiz

    Sooperhotshiz New Member

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    Most fundamentalist Christians would never say the OT is wrong. In the NT, God did kill those who disobeyed him Acts 5:1-11, rev 9.. You could say the OT has no theological value in Christianity and its God, there are many types of reasons or "excuses" people give for the actions in the OT. Other times people say not to question it because it is God that defines what is good, and if you disagree with it then that is bad. I don't have an answer but I will tell you that any half-intellectual idiot is able to make things work out for what they want to believe. In my opinion, it is best if you make up your own reasons rather than reasons made up by somebody else.
     
  10. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    you must kidding me !!!! :eek:

    are you saying that there are 2 different Gods in 2 different testament so we have the evil God in the OT and the love one in the NT ???

    what are you talking about guys ?? please think before you answer in here blindly.

    if he is the same God but the OT was corrupted then why you don't believe muslims when they say the NT too were corrupted bringing evidence for this claim.

    Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) said: Do not kill a child ( the first order ), do not kill an Old, do not kill a woman and do not cut a tree ( even a tree ).

    So, now do you think islam is bad ?? ofcourse not

    and also we can say that islam came to correct the NT as the NT came to correct the OT.

    Peace :)
     
  11. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I understand your point, The truth, but we are happy to accept the new testament - which is based on Christ's teachings. The message throughout the New testament is one of an ever- loving, caring God; we simply believe that those who wrote the old testament misunderstood what they were trying to relate.

    There are no two Gods - there is only one, but the old testament was 'surpassed' by the new testament, in which his only begotten son Jesus Christ, made sure we understood God and his Love. For us, we are happy with that; why should we need to want to accept Islam?

    http://www.gospelgazette.com/gazette/2004/mar/page8.htm

    an extract reads as follows:-
    "Several New Testament passages teach the temporary design of the Old Testament system (the Law of Moses), and the fact that the new covenant of Christ superseded the Old (Colossians 2:14-15; Ephesians 2:14-15; Galatians 3:23-25; Romans 7:1-6; Hebrews 6:12; 9:15-17).
    If the Old Testament has been abrogated, why should a person be concerned with studying it? This is a question of many sincere people, and it deserves a response. This caution, however, must be noted. In arguing the temporary status of the Old Testament system, one should not leave the mistaken notion that the OT is an insignificant portion of Scripture.
    In considering the value of Old Testament study, one should be aware of some invalid uses of it. First, the OT is not a source for determining how to become a Christian (cf. Acts 4:12; Romans 1:16). Second, the OT is not a guide for Christian worship (cf. Colossians 3:17; 2 John 9). Third, the OT is not a pattern for the church (cf. 1 Corinthians 3:11; Hebrews 10:1). Fourth, the OT cannot be isolated from the NT (2 Timothy 1:10). When inspired NT writers comment on OT passages, it is abject arrogance to disagree with them. The NT was given as the binding will of Christ, becoming operative subsequent to his death (cf. Hebrews 9:15-17; Luke 10:16; John16: 13)................"​
    This is just the opening passage - If you are interested, I suggest you read the whole page on the above site.:)
     
  12. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    i saw what you were trying to say michel but you didn't answer this question.

    There is no single chance that Jesus (PBUH) was definitely right and we should follow him but the problem accured when the NT was corrupted as the OT ( because at that time the OT is the only holy book which was avilable before the NT ).

    If Jesus came to refresh the law and the principle of believeing in God then why it's impossible that Mohamed (PBUH) came to refresh the NT?

    and the evidence is that once:

    Jesus (PBUH) came after Moses (PBUH) which means NT after OT

    then we can say:

    Mohamed (PBUH) came after Jesus (PBUH) which means Quran after NT.

    isn't it logic ?

    Michel, i know you are happy with it and i don't mind whether you are happy with it or not but it's a matter of thinking and using our minds to think as we made our hearts to believe.

    by the way, Jesus Christ have said that Mohamed (PBUH) will come and we all should follow him and i can bring for you verses in the bible where Jesus said so.

    Peace :)
     
  13. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    You are welcome to believe in what feels right for you; I know that what feels right for me is Christianity, and I want to follow the example of Christ - that is what makes me a Christian; there is more to religion than just faith, and literature.

    There is culture as well - and I would find the islamic culture hard to follow, just as I imagine you find the western culture 'uncomfortable'.:)
     
  14. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    There is a misconception here?

    When does the religion is a matter of culture?

    are saying the Africans, Asian,Russian ... etc have the same culture as you in the west as a christian?

    or are you claiming maybe that Muslims from Asia, Africa, and europe have the same culture?

    If Christianity is the truth i swear by God i'll be the Christian but until now there is many mystries, contradictions and confusion in the way but if any religion is the right i guess we must follow it whatever our culture is but if the case is that you see it as a matter of what you used to do and believeing in so i think you don't care of the truth or what you believe in whether it's right or wrong and ofcourse you have the right to choose your way.


    Peace :)
     
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