are christian people truly humble?

[cambridge79]

in christianity ( and i suspect christianity is not the only religion that does that ) being humble is a highly praised virtue. In christianity Pride is one of the seven deadly sins, and is probably considered the worst of them.

Now let's compare for example their religious view of the world with an atheistic view of the world:

christian view:
GOD created ME in HIS OWN IMAGE and all the UNIVERSE just for ME cause i'm the center and the pinnacle of the whole creation and he loves me above anything else.
What my religion says CAN'T BE WRONG cause it is the word of God himself and all the other people saying different things who think they're right , well THEY MUST BE WRONG.
When I die i'm gonna EXIST FOREVER and if i've been good enough i'll spend the eternity BESIDE GOD himself.

Atheistic view:
I'm just like everything else in nature, the universe is vast and i'm just a tiny part of it, i'm not actually more special than a rock or a duck if not for the people who loves me and i share a common ancestor with apes.
When i'm gonna die i simply disappear and become nothing, like the same nothing i was before my mother gave me life, it will be like sleeping forever but without dreaming. My phisical body will become food for animals or plants.
Anybody is entitled to live his own life the way they want, I am no one to tell them what to do, how to dress, who to love and so on, as long as doing so they respect others like i respect them.

now, how comes they're considered the humble ones and i'm considered a proud man when i point to this?

 

[Robert.Evans]

in christianity ( and i suspect christianity is not the only religion that does that ) being humble is a highly praised virtue. In christianity Pride is one of the seven deadly sins, and is probably considered the worst of them.

if the opposite of humble is to be proud or big headed, outspoken, I think most would prefer a bit of humility.

Now let's compare for example their religious view of the world with an atheistic view of the world:

You mean your opinion of it.

christian view:
GOD created ME in HIS OWN IMAGE

Yes

and all the UNIVERSE just for ME

No

cause i'm the center and the pinnacle of the whole creation and he loves me above anything else.

I guess so, accept for his son of course, but there is little difference as all is God.

What my religion says CAN'T BE WRONG cause it is the word of God himself

that would depend on the faith and the person you're speaking to. The word won't be wrong but the interpretation might be.

and all the other people saying different things who think they're right , well THEY MUST BE WRONG.

Sometimes, sometimes not.

When I die i'm gonna EXIST FOREVER and if i've been good enough i'll spend the eternity BESIDE GOD himself.

Yes

Atheistic view:
I'm just like everything else in nature,

accept fo the belivers no doubt

the universe is vast and i'm just a tiny part of it,

That is also what I think.

i'm not actually more special than a rock or a duck

I don't think you really mean that... a rock!

if not for the people who loves me and i share a common ancestor with apes.

I agree.

When i'm gonna die i simply disappear and become nothing, like the same nothing i was before my mother gave me life, it will be like sleeping forever but without dreaming.

Where is your evidence of that?

My phisical body will become food for animals or plants.

Yes.

Anybody is entitled to live his own life the way they want,

Not if they are breaking the law they aren't

I am no one to tell them what to do, how to dress, who to love and so on, as long as doing so they respect others like i respect them.

Okay.

now, how comes they're considered the humble ones and i'm considered a proud man when i point to this?

Point to what?
Perhaps you think of a certain group of people you know or perhaps this is a caricature of religion, I don't know. There are good and bad all over.

 

[Augustus]

now, how comes they're considered the humble ones and i'm considered a proud man when i point to this?

Maybe because drawing attention to your superior levels of humility is considered proud

 

[Tumah]

in christianity ( and i suspect christianity is not the only religion that does that ) being humble is a highly praised virtue. In christianity Pride is one of the seven deadly sins, and is probably considered the worst of them.

Now let's compare for example their religious view of the world with an atheistic view of the world:

christian view:
GOD created ME in HIS OWN IMAGE and all the UNIVERSE just for ME cause i'm the center and the pinnacle of the whole creation and he loves me above anything else.
What my religion says CAN'T BE WRONG cause it is the word of God himself and all the other people saying different things who think they're right , well THEY MUST BE WRONG.
When I die i'm gonna EXIST FOREVER and if i've been good enough i'll spend the eternity BESIDE GOD himself.

Atheistic view:
I'm just like everything else in nature, the universe is vast and i'm just a tiny part of it, i'm not actually more special than a rock or a duck if not for the people who loves me and i share a common ancestor with apes.
When i'm gonna die i simply disappear and become nothing, like the same nothing i was before my mother gave me life, it will be like sleeping forever but without dreaming. My phisical body will become food for animals or plants.
Anybody is entitled to live his own life the way they want, I am no one to tell them what to do, how to dress, who to love and so on, as long as doing so they respect others like i respect them.

now, how comes they're considered the humble ones and i'm considered a proud man when i point to this?

I don't see anything prideful or humble in either of these worldviews.
Pride would require some sort of self-righteous satisfaction because of these views. But I don't see that as being a necessary outcome of the Christian view. It could, but it doesn't have to.
As to the atheist view. I don't see that as necessitating a humble outlook. It could just as easily engender a depressive outlook. It could make one humble, but it doesn't have to.

 

[sun rise]

From a Catholic's blog:

Do I hide my pride
behind a mask of humility?

As we grow in self-knowledge,
we grow in true humility.

Humility frees us from the tyranny
of the ego’s power.

When an understanding of who we are
and where we came from
permeates our entire being
we are truly on the road to redemption.

Seeing my own emptiness and impermanence
prompted me to fall to my knees and pray.

Once the clouds of self-deception
have been blown away by prayer,
the need for repentance becomes clear:
we are not who, or how,
we once thought we were.

From Thoughts of a Blind Beggar

 

[leibowde84]

in christianity ( and i suspect christianity is not the only religion that does that ) being humble is a highly praised virtue. In christianity Pride is one of the seven deadly sins, and is probably considered the worst of them.

Now let's compare for example their religious view of the world with an atheistic view of the world:

christian view:
GOD created ME in HIS OWN IMAGE and all the UNIVERSE just for ME cause i'm the center and the pinnacle of the whole creation and he loves me above anything else.
What my religion says CAN'T BE WRONG cause it is the word of God himself and all the other people saying different things who think they're right , well THEY MUST BE WRONG.
When I die i'm gonna EXIST FOREVER and if i've been good enough i'll spend the eternity BESIDE GOD himself.

Atheistic view:
I'm just like everything else in nature, the universe is vast and i'm just a tiny part of it, i'm not actually more special than a rock or a duck if not for the people who loves me and i share a common ancestor with apes.
When i'm gonna die i simply disappear and become nothing, like the same nothing i was before my mother gave me life, it will be like sleeping forever but without dreaming. My phisical body will become food for animals or plants.
Anybody is entitled to live his own life the way they want, I am no one to tell them what to do, how to dress, who to love and so on, as long as doing so they respect others like i respect them.

now, how comes they're considered the humble ones and i'm considered a proud man when i point to this?

One major problem, not applicable to all Christians, but Christianity as a general concept, is the idea that the only way to salvation is through Christ. This means that only those who have "bought-in" to the New Testament are destined to be "saved" and "sit with God" in Heaven. Thus, a Christian can honestly look down on anyone who has not officially "bought-in" to the faith as being not good-enough for salvation.

I have trouble seeing this attitude as being "humble" in any real way.

 

[cambridge79]

i appreciate your reply but you made it quite unquotable i'll try it anyway

if the opposite of humble is to be proud or big headed, outspoken, I think most would prefer a bit of humility

i never said being humble is a bad quality for a man i was just questioning the fact that a theistic view could be considered humble at all.


[/quote]You mean your opinion of it.[/quote]
I can give you that. Maybe i should have better presented it as "atheist/humanistic view" because atheist would include even people like Stalin and i'm pretty sure this wasn't his view of the world.

No

do you believe there are other life forms in the universe? Some christians do some don't. In case of those who don't what would be the use of all that empty space out there if not for you to contemplate?

that would depend on the faith and the person you're speaking to. The word won't be wrong but the interpretation might be.

well, it wouldn't be the word of god to be wrong, it would be you making a mistake while reading it. So your religion ( intending as what you should believe not what you actually believe ) can't be wrong by definition ( at least can't be wrong by the way it define itself, again, pretty humble ).

Sometimes, sometimes not.

i guess that "sometimes not" means "when they agree with what my god say". For example if i say "being good to people is a good thing" i'm right in that contest even if i'm an atheist but i'm right just because it happens to be the same thing your god say. Wich in the end turns out to be "people can be right only when they agree with the things i believe in" wich is again as far from being humble as one could be. Or am i missing something?

accept fo the belivers no doubt

i accept it as a joke but definitely is not true. I may think you're wrong in believing in god but i don't think this makes much difference in the bigger picture and is a far less important thing for me when i judge you than my lack of faith in god is for you when you judge me.
Let me give you an example: i have the highest regard for "good religious people". Ghandi was a religious people and i think he is a great example for humans to follow. on the other side you may have the great regards for an atheist and his achievements but in the end you will always think he will rot in hell in eternal agony till the end of time cause he didn't accept God in his life.

I don't think you really mean that... a rock!

in my bigger picture, yes. I may be more "complex", i can sing, paint think and dance, a rock can't, but we both lack a purpose apart from the one i set for myself.
what are more important to you, the stones that the walls of your house are made of, or those people that lived in mongolia in the year 321?

Where is your evidence of that?

My evidence is that this is the simple conclusion you can have with the evidences you have.
Nobody has been able to provide evidences to prove the existence of the soul therefore is safe to assume there's no one. If you don't you have to provide evidences because positive assumptions are the one who have the burden of proof.
therefore my "self" is the product of my brain, and when my brain will die and rot away my "self" would be no more.
Now if you ask me what i was before i was born i tell you i have no experience of that, and i lack this experience cause i was nothing then. So for me is safe to assume that being dead will be like that, because i've already been dead ( meaning not alive ) and part of being dead is the lack of experience of the self.
Now can i proof it? no i can't. But can you provide a more simple answer? i mean a more simple answer that doesn't involve to introduce other things ( for example god or the soul ) that you would need to provide evidences of, but you ultimately can't.
So yes it is actually something I BELIEVE and not something I KNOW but is the simplest believe i can come up with the knowledge i have.

Not if they are breaking the law they aren't

that would go under my last sentence when i say "as long as doing this they respect others". Note that in your case the law would be the law of god and the purpose would be to praise god.
in my case the law would be the law of men and the purpose would be to allow men to live togheter without harming each others.

Point to what?

point to the fact that if you put the views one beside the other, you can't honestly say the religious one is humble while the other is the result of pride, is qute the opposite.

 

[cambridge79]

One major problem, not applicable to all Christians, but Christianity as a general concept, is the idea that the only way to salvation is through Christ. This means that only those who have "bought-in" to the New Testament are destined to be "saved" and "sit with God" in Heaven. Thus, a Christian can honestly look down on anyone who has not officially "bought-in" to the faith as being not good-enough for salvation.

I have trouble seeing this attitude as being "humble" in any real way.

that's the core point in a nutshell.

The actual pope went as far as to say, shocking the world "even an atheist if he acts like a decent man can enter the gates of heaven" at that point the vatican in just a couple of hours added "yes, but only with a true faith in christ" how sad is that?

"sure you can be a free thinker and an atheist, you just have to believe in my god and do what i say and you can be that"

 

[Quintessence]

Now let's compare for example their religious view of the world with an atheistic view of the world:

I'm glad you recognize these are examples, because if we took these to be broadly characteristic of all atheists or all Christians we would be grossly mischaracterizing both. It is better to let each individual speak for themselves rather than put words in their mouths. Do you have quotations from actual Christians and atheists who espouse these perspectives? Something from Christian clergy, for example, or a statement from an atheist organization? Hypothetical examples are all well and good, but I prefer vetted statements.

An extra question for you, though: do you feel that anthropocentrism means one cannot be humble?

 

[cambridge79]

From a Catholic's blog:

Do I hide my pride
behind a mask of humility?

As we grow in self-knowledge,
we grow in true humility.

Humility frees us from the tyranny
of the ego’s power.

When an understanding of who we are
and where we came from
permeates our entire being
we are truly on the road to redemption.

Seeing my own emptiness and impermanence
prompted me to fall to my knees and pray.

Once the clouds of self-deception
have been blown away by prayer,
the need for repentance becomes clear:
we are not who, or how,
we once thought we were.

From Thoughts of a Blind Beggar

i thank you for this, i quite like the concept of "the tiranny of the ego" and this sound like an interesting reflection, but in the end this looks like more something written by a buddhist than a christian. I actually praise the faith of this man, i just wonder if he is a christian.

 

[cambridge79]

I'm glad you recognize these are examples, because if we took these to be broadly characteristic of all atheists or all Christians we would be grossly mischaracterizing both. It is better to let each individual speak for themselves rather than put words in their mouths.

well are these just examples? yes and no. For the atheist for sure because atheism is a very loose description and doesn't involve a commonly shared morality therefore is wrong to call the fore presented as "atheist view".
A nihilist is an atheist. Stalin was an atheist. i wouldn't want to see a world based on their principles and the fore exposed for sure is not their view. Therefore as i've stated before, "materialist/humanist view" would have been a more proper definition.
On the other hand, concerning the christian view, what i've portraied is more or less christian dogma. Do christians believe in heaven? yes. Do christians believe those who are not christians end up in hell? as far as i know yes. Do christians believe the word of god is the absolute thruth? yes. I've left out for example things like creationism since the majority of christians don't believe that but the fact that "the word of god is the thruth" and going against it is going against the thruth for example is pure christian dogma.
If i've misportraied something please point to that so i can correct it, this way if in the future i had to come up with the same kind of argument i won't be wrong again.

An extra question for you, though: d

o you feel that anthropocentrism means one cannot be humble?

it depends humble in regard of what. You can be humble in a lot of ways. Humble in judging the effective role of mankind in the universe? no i honestly think he can't.
Humble like Francis of Assisi who gave all he had to poors and went to live in a cave? sure he can. But how humble would have been Francis in regard of a Muslim for example? i mean, would he have gone "well brother, maybe i'm wrong and you're right who knows?" i'm not sure about that. If he wasn't so deeply convinced of what he believed in he wouldn't have probably been such an hardcore guy in first place.

 

[cambridge79]

Maybe because drawing attention to your superior levels of humility is considered proud

this looks suspiciously like those guys who play the "you're oppressing me" card when you point to the fact that they should stop to oppress other people.
like "you have to stop to oppress black people" and they reply "oh you're oppressing my right to oppress black people"

more than that i'm not required to be humble, they are.

 

[leibowde84]

if the opposite of humble is to be proud or big headed, outspoken, I think most would prefer a bit of humility.

You mean your opinion of it.

Yes

No

I guess so, accept for his son of course, but there is little difference as all is God.

that would depend on the faith and the person you're speaking to. The word won't be wrong but the interpretation might be.

Sometimes, sometimes not.

Yes

accept fo the belivers no doubt

That is also what I think.

I don't think you really mean that... a rock!

I agree.

Where is your evidence of that?

Yes.

Not if they are breaking the law they aren't

Okay.

Point to what?
Perhaps you think of a certain group of people you know or perhaps this is a caricature of religion, I don't know. There are good and bad all over.

How can assuming that you are more enlightened, due to your acceptance of the NT and Christ, be considered "humble"? That you are able to understand/believe/"buy into" something that some others can't? Doesn't this necessitate that you feel you are better off with your faith than those that aren't able to believe the things you do?

There are a plethora of people I know personally who have studied Christianity extensively, but aren't able to believe the major tenants. They don't see it as plausible for one reason or another. Now, obviously I disagree with them, but do you think they are missing something that you have inherently?

 

[leibowde84]

that's the core point in a nutshell.

The actual pope went as far as to say, shocking the world "even an atheist if he acts like a decent man can enter the gates of heaven" at that point the vatican in just a couple of hours added "yes, but only with a true faith in christ" how sad is that?

"sure you can be a free thinker and an atheist, you just have to believe in my god and do what i say and you can be that"

A bit counter-intuitive, if you ask me. I am a Christian, but I also believe that there are many paths to God. Faith in Christ is not necessary. The focus should be on following his example, but there are other examples that can do the trick, imho.

 

[cambridge79]

A bit counter-intuitive, if you ask me. I am a Christian, but I also believe that there are many paths to God. Faith in Christ is not necessary. The focus should be on following his example, but there are other examples that can do the trick, imho.

i'm pretty sure that if you said something similar you would mean exactly that.
But i can assure you 100% that when catholic church does that remark after the pope speech what they're actually saying is "Pope have you become mad? we can't let go the monopoly on souls and heaven otherwise all those people that guarantee us money and power won't buy our story anymore" i can actually picture in my mind their faces scared to death when they've heard the pope say those words, it's like throwing a nuke in the middle of the vatican.

 

[Augustus]

this looks suspiciously like those guys who play the "you're oppressing me" card when you point to the fact that they should stop to oppress other people.
like "you have to stop to oppress black people" and they reply "oh you're oppressing my right to oppress black people"

more than that i'm not required to be humble, they are.

You were asking how you could be considered proud for saying you are more humble than Christians.

If you think highlighting the irony of boasting about being more humble than others is similar to complaining about not being able to oppress black people then be my guest...

 

[Scott C.]

now, how comes they're considered the humble ones and i'm considered a proud man when i point to this?

Some Christians assume that pride is the root of atheism. The atheist is too proud to humble himself before his Maker and submit his will to the will of a Supreme Being, even though that Supreme Being is filled with love for that person. While I do believe that human pride is often the root cause of rebellion against God, pride infects all of us from all walks of life, believers and unbelievers alike. I would not accuse an atheist of being proud, simply because he or she does not believe in God. As a Christian, I would consider that to be an unrighteous judgement and one that I am not qualified to make. My time would be better spent searching my own soul for pride and rooting it out.

Nothing in Christianity's teachings regarding the nature of God and man's relationship to God, encourages pride. It encourages humility as we come to understand our utter dependence on God. Although, I have come across some Christians who seem to be full of pride based on what they say and do. Some put themselves above others because they have what they believe to be true. They believe that God favors them over others. But then again, I'm not qualified to make that judgement either.

The fact that one believes that he has found the only way to salvation and to eternal happiness does not imply pride.

 

[Robert.Evans]

i appreciate your reply but you made it quite unquotable i'll try it anyway

Hmmm...... well, I don't really know what to say to all that as I don't really know what you're arguing. As I said at the end, words to the effect, people are people. Are you asking about humility and nothing else? If that is so, it is a difficult answer as there are many other things to consider. I will guess you are American and brought up a believer and now are not.... one might say, "You have seen the darkness" and now you are disgruntled it seems with many things.

 

[leibowde84]

i'm pretty sure that if you said something similar you would mean exactly that.
But i can assure you 100% that when catholic church does that remark after the pope speech what they're actually saying is "Pope have you become mad? we can't let go the monopoly on souls and heaven otherwise all those people that guarantee us money and power won't buy our story anymore" i can actually picture in my mind their faces scared to death when they've heard the pope say those words, it's like throwing a nuke in the middle of the vatican.

I know what you mean. A "glorious" moment, fo sho.

 

[sun rise]

...

it depends humble in regard of what. You can be humble in a lot of ways. Humble in judging the effective role of mankind in the universe? no i honestly think he can't.
Humble like Francis of Assisi who gave all he had to poors and went to live in a cave? sure he can. But how humble would have been Francis in regard of a Muslim for example? i mean, would he have gone "well brother, maybe i'm wrong and you're right who knows?" i'm not sure about that. If he wasn't so deeply convinced of what he believed in he wouldn't have probably been such an hardcore guy in first place.

There is a famous story of how St. Francis tried to stop a crusade and visited the Sultan of Egypt but no detailed account of what really happened. http://www.academia.edu/7384455/St...._Malik_al-Kamil_The_Legend_in_History_and_Art is a summary of what is known.