Are atheists irrational?

[Valjean]

You are quite correct, atheism is as irrational as theism.

The only logical position is agnosticism which holds that there may or may not be a God or many Gods or even a divine spaghetti monster, but that there is insufficient evidence to prove anything either way.

You may have guessed that I am an agnostic.

You just described atheism.

 

[crowfeather]

Blessed are the agnostics. They alone, save for those who know for sure, are the only ones with enough humility to ever find out.

 

[Godless Ray]

As an avid atheist and to the greater degree anti-theist I have been trying for over a year to come to grips with what I believe and stand for. So many atheists prattle about reason and logic while even when I was a Muslim I did the exact same thing although with less intellectual contradictions. The more I speak to atheists and try to understand things that are valued to us like science and pragmaticism I find myself incapable of rationalizing my own atheism.

When I was a Muslim the primary reason I left Islam was because of other Muslims and also become of the ideology yet here I am in something that should be creedless and the minute I question something that is secular I am a public enemy amongst atheists. Just by questioned transgender issues I have been called a fake atheist and closet Christian. I used to cling to being a deist for this very reason as I could never understand the anger I witnessed by atheists, it made no sense to be angry at not religion but at secular ideas.

I witness conservatives, Christians, libertarians and pragmatic thinkers on religion criticize atheist for creating gods out of secular constructs and I can't help but wonder that this is the truth. As of now I am sure this is the truth as I am incapable of finding an atheist who is stringent with his principles and a fervent believer in safeguarding his own morals.

As of now I cannot call myself an atheist anymore. I do not believe in the supernatural yet all I have left is philosophy and all that emanates from it.

Atheism is a rational position to me yet every atheist I know is so irrational.

Irrational not in my world view in fact I find them supremely rational

 

[BilliardsBall]

So why is Christianity not common knowledge, if it's so rational and evidenced? Why isn't it universally accepted? Why do so many otherwise intelligent people believe other things?

I said "prolonged study". It's easier to do drugs and alcohol and be immoral and lie and cheat and steal and scoff than it is to sit down and read the Bible, not for ten minutes, but to prayerfully, carefully see what's what.

 

[Valjean]

A prayerful reading? How is that different from a biased, prejudiced reading?
Wouldn't we get a more accurate assessment from a critical or even a dispassionate reading?

 

[Sahm Kohm]

No, I described agnosticism. Atheism starts with the basic premise that God does NOT exist. The very concept of a God is rejected absolutely. This is as much a position of Faith as the most devout theist as a negative cannot be proven.

Agnosticism says there is no proof either way and rejects both positions on the current evidence, but is willing to change position if the evidence changes.

 

[Valjean]

No, I described agnosticism. Atheism starts with the basic premise that God does NOT exist. The very concept of a God is rejected absolutely. This is as much a position of Faith as the most devout theist as a negative cannot be proven.

No. A basic feature is one common to all members of a group.
The starting or basic premise of atheism is lack of belief. The positive belief that God does NOT exist is an add-on.
All atheists lack belief in God. Not all atheists believe God doesn't exist.

 

[Sahm Kohm]

No. A basic feature is one common to all members of a group.
The starting or basic premise of atheism is lack of belief. The positive belief that God does NOT exist is an add-on.
All atheists lack belief in God. Not all atheists believe God doesn't exist.

Then why is is called atheism?
The prefix a- on a word is a negation. Apathy no feeling. Atheism no God. It is of Greek origin. Check it out.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Then why is is called atheism?
The prefix a- on a word is a negation. Apathy no feeling. Atheism no God. It is of Greek origin. Check it out.

Atheism is the absence of a god belief. One is without theism. He doesn't need to claim that gods don't exist to be a-theistic, just not theistic. Most of us are agnostic about gods. We understand the limits of knowledge in this deprtment, and what can and cannot be known at this time. Claiming to know more is to take a leap of faith that isn't necessary.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Btw, this thread is posted in "Interfaith Discussion", these forums are not for debating.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Btw, this thread is posted in "Interfaith Discussion", these forums are not for debating.

At what point does a discussion become a debate? When people go from agreeing to disagreeing?

The title of the thread pretty much guarantees that there will be debate.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

At what point does a discussion become a debate? When people go from agreeing to disagreeing?

The title of the thread pretty much guarantees that there will be debate.

Take it up with the mods if you disagree with the forum rules or want further clarification.

 

[viole]

No, I described agnosticism. Atheism starts with the basic premise that God does NOT exist. The very concept of a God is rejected absolutely. This is as much a position of Faith as the most devout theist as a negative cannot be proven.

Agnosticism says there is no proof either way and rejects both positions on the current evidence, but is willing to change position if the evidence changes.

Maybe I should turn to agnosticism about the possibility that the Universe comes from the excrements of a huge amount of spiritual ants. Possible. Cannot prove it wrong. My current a-excrementism might be indeed too strong and arrogant. Need definetely to be more humbe about that.

Or agnosticism about the possibility that Mickey Mouse spiritually revealed Himself to some humans and that He is the true creator of the world and the giver of moral values. And the main reason why I love cheese so much. Possible. Who can deny it? There must be a reason for the objective appreciation of cheese among humans.

Or agnosticism about the possibility that some invisible fairies are conspiring to prevent the growth of Habanero peppers in my garden. Someone must be conspiring something against that, and my gardener with a PhD in gardening is himself very puzzled about it. Maybe we should contemplate this possibile evil fairies scenario in a very humble and open minded way.

Or agnosticism about a god-man-prophet coming to earth to take the Passover weekend off for my sins, before taking off to a place of eternal bliss. In some variants this take off can be in the form of winged horses providing shuttle service to the same location. Of course, that is possible. How can I prove it wrong?

Or agnosticism about the possibility that planets are in truth carried around by invisible angels obsessed with conic sections, and that any other naturalistic explanation of their orbits is wrong. That would also simplify physics considerably. My teacher would disagree, but he is an a-angelist with the obvious agenda of making angels superflous. How arrogant and close minded.

Or agnosticism about the possibility that ....

Plug in the infinity of possible things that share the same evidence and that I cannot prove wrong, and I should, therefore, be agnostic about. And I shall.

Now what? Am I suddenly more intellectually respectable by withholding judgement about all these equally plausible things?

Ciao

- viole

 

[BilliardsBall]

The trick is to learn to compartmentalize emotions and not let them determine the outcome of one's critical thinking - a learned habit of thought.

Note that this is not the same as suppressing emotion, but merely recognizing that it should not be part of the problem solving process, which ideally is dispassionate and impartial, and involves only evidence and sound reasoning. This process then informs us of which emotions are healthy, which serve us, which should be indulged and under what circumstances, etc..



Empirically, that is incorrect. Most of the world's best minds have not come to that conclusion.

Why? Because there is no way to arrive at Christianity using reason. Even your Bible tells you that that is an act of faith.

The Bible says reason is to be employed with God, and the Bible says that faith is evidence leading to a logical conclusion, not blind faith or wishing something into being.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The Bible says reason is to be employed with God, and the Bible says that faith is evidence leading to a logical conclusion, not blind faith or wishing something into being.

What about the faith of people who don't believe the Bible? Doesn't that mean that their faith is evidence leading them to the logical conclusion that a different religion is correct?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The Bible says reason is to be employed with God, and the Bible says that faith is evidence leading to a logical conclusion, not blind faith or wishing something into being.

You ignored the post you quoted and instead told me what the Bible says.

Incidentally, the biblical god cannot survive a reasoned assessment of the claims made about it.

Also, faith is evidence of nothing except the willingness to believe without justification. There is n way for faith to lead to a logical conclusion:

“If somewhere in the Bible I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I am reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and do my best to work it out and understand it."- Pastor Peter laRuffa

Presumably, he could choose to believe that 2 + 2 = 14, 76, or 2034 if he wanted to. That's faith.

 

[Thehoodedmonk]

People are not born believing in gods. Furthermore humankind had to invent the concept of gods; they invented them as a response to living is a godless existence.

Are you saying that people are borned atheist? I do not think that men invented the concept of gods, I think they realized that gods must exist because it made sense. But because they chose many different gods the real God gave men his word so that men could understand the truth. Unfortunately , or not, most men can not and do not understand God's word.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As of now I cannot call myself an atheist anymore. I do not believe in the supernatural yet all I have left is philosophy and all that emanates from it.

Atheism is a rational position to me yet every atheist I know is so irrational.

Since this reasoning is irrational itself, apparently, you'll fit right in.

 

[Thehoodedmonk]

I was brought up being told not to discuss religion and politics in public, which is why I like coming on here.

If you want to talk religion and politics in public that is OK but don't talk religion or politics on the job, you can get fired!

 

[Thehoodedmonk]

It is IMO a serious mistake to expect much of theism. And for similar reasons, but with very different consequences, it is also a significant mistake to expect much of atheism.

All that talk about gods and belief in gods only gets in the way of the stuff that matters.

Stuff that matters? What matters? Civilizations come into being and a lot of people work hard to make it happen, and they work to make it grow, but then the civilization collapses, and all the work, and inventions, and thought, and music and art, and whatever, it is gone. God gave man the laws to keep civilizations going, but men disobeyed God's laws which brought down the civilizations. There is more to religion than just believing in God, one must obey God.