Are angels really the old gods and goddesses?

[mostly harmless]

I was reading a book and it listed the names of pagan gods and goddesses from various cultures/traditions.

And a question popped into my mind...is it possible that the early Christian church adopted the old gods/goddesses as angels in the same way that they adopted Pan as the devil?

I thought the thought that popped into my head might make an interesting discussion..

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I suspect some Angels were inherited from the mists of time...
first by the Jews and then by Christians.
I think they were more likely to have been spirits rather than Gods...
Gods are not so easy to cast in the role of servants...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I was reading a book and it listed the names of pagan gods and goddesses from various cultures/traditions.

And a question popped into my mind...is it possible that the early Christian church adopted the old gods/goddesses as angels in the same way that they adopted Pan as the devil?

I thought the thought that popped into my head might make an interesting discussion..

Not angels, but saints.

Where the heck do you get the idea that Pan is Satan? :slap:

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Not angels, but saints.

Where the heck do you get the idea that Pan is Satan? :slap:

I did not think there were any Jewish saints .... except in the north African tradition.
So their biblical Angels could hardly have been saints.

 

[Willamena]

I did not think there were any Jewish saints .... except in the north African tradition.
So their biblical Angels could hardly have been saints.

Maybe they just didn't call them "saints." Maybe they had another word for them ....like, "angels."


I rather like that idea, though this is the first I've heard of it.

 

[doppelganger]

While I think it depends on the "angel" at issue, it's a really cool story. Very Lovecraft, if you know what I mean. Many mythologies represent the conquering of existing cultures metaphorically through the old gods becoming the vanquished by the victors' god. Baal in the Hebrew scriptures is an example.

Baha'i does this, too - turning Jesus ("God" to Christians) into an angel (messenger) of their "God."

 

[Halcyon]

Where the heck do you get the idea that Pan is Satan?

I'm guessing she means the whole horns, cloven hooves, general goaty appearence.

As to the OP. I've read that in early Hebrew religious history there was only one angel, the Malach Elohim, who was essentially God manifesting on Earth to give people messages.
Later, after the exile and contact with Zoroastrianism in its Zurvanite form, i imagine the idea of multiple angels became incorporated into Judaism and was passed down into Christianity.

Although i'd like to add, this is all just my speculation on the matter.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I did not think there were any Jewish saints .... except in the north African tradition.
So their biblical Angels could hardly have been saints.

hahaha

That's not what I said... many gods have simply become Christian saints... not angels.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'm guessing she means the whole horns, cloven hooves, general goaty appearence.

As to the OP. I've read that in early Hebrew religious history there was only one angel, the Malach Elohim, who was essentially God manifesting on Earth to give people messages.
Later, after the exile and contact with Zoroastrianism in its Zurvanite form, i imagine the idea of multiple angels became incorporated into Judaism and was passed down into Christianity.

Although i'd like to add, this is all just my speculation on the matter.

OK... :slap:

 

[doppelganger]

hahaha

That's not what I said... many gods have simply become Christian saints... not angels.

I'd love to read about some examples . . .

 

[arthra]

While I think it depends on the "angel" at issue, it's a really cool story. Very Lovecraft, if you know what I mean. Many mythologies represent the conquering of existing cultures metaphorically through the old gods becoming the vanquished by the victors' god. Baal in the Hebrew scriptures is an example.

Baha'i does this, too - turning Jesus ("God" to Christians) into an angel (messenger) of their "God."

Hello Doppelganger!

I couldn't help but notice your post above that Baha'i has turned Jesus into an angel-messenger... You may be unfamiliar with the concept we Baha'is use call Manifestation of God... Here Jesus perfectly manifests God...that is, God refleted in the perfect "mirror" of Jesus. For anyone approaching Jesus they would "see" God manifest in Him. It's not that we relegate Jesus to a lower place in our view but recognize Him in a new way.

The concept of "angels" though is also different for us Baha'is.. We believe angels are perfected people and not supernatural beings as tradition would have it. I know some Christian groups believe Jesus was an angel but this is not our belief...

Anyway have a good discussion!

- Art

 

[doppelganger]

I couldn't help but notice your post above that Baha'i has turned Jesus into an angel-messenger... You may be unfamiliar with the concept we Baha'is use call Manifestation of God... Here Jesus perfectly manifests God...that is, God refleted in the perfect "mirror" of Jesus.

So Jesus is "God" then? Or not? Because if Jesus is not God, then Baha'i reduced his stature and includes him in the newer Baha'i pantheon, you "recognize him in a new way" - and it isn't the one recognized in orthodox Christianity. Which is why Baha'i is an excellent example of the phenomenon I was describing of an incoming mythology overlaying itself on pre-existing ones, but bumping the older gods down a spot in the pantheon (or making the pariah of them).

Whether you like to call it "manifestations", or "messengers" (the literal meaning of "angel") is a matter of semantics not really germane to the issue.

 

[ChristineES]

I didn't know anything about the Baha'i religion, so I did a google search on it and they do believe that Jesus was a perfect manifestation of God according to what I read. But He was not the only one according to what I read. I could be wrong, I only skimmed through the info for an overview.

About angels being gods in other religions, I just don't know. It sounds a bit far-fetched to me.

 

[doppelganger]

I didn't know anything about the Baha'i religion, so I did a google search on it and they do believe that Jesus was a perfect manifestation of God according to what I read.

Yes and no. You have to be very careful to ask very direct questions (as unequivocally as you can manage), and make sure they answer the question you asked.

 

[Gentoo]

I believe that Catholicism's Saint Bridget was the goddess of the hearth in Celtic mythology.

 

[doppelganger]

I believe that Catholicism's Saint Bridget was the goddess of the hearth in Celtic mythology.

My surname is derived from her.

 

[ChristineES]

Yes and no. You have to be very careful to ask very direct questions (as unequivocally as you can manage), and make sure they answer the question you asked.

Yes, I know. I was hestitant about stating that, since I know so little about it. I hope I didn't overstep myself in replying, if I did, I apologize. If I weren't a Christian, Baha'i sound like a religion I would like.

 

[doppelganger]

Yes, I know. I was hestitant about stating that, since I know so little about it. I hope I didn't overstep myself in replying, if I did, I apologize. If I weren't a Christian, Baha'i sound like a religion I would like.

It varies, of course, from person to person, but it's not always what it seems. They have some beautiful writings and but for the authoritarian religious structure that has emerged, I find it extremely agreeable. I find it's incredibly frustrating trying to a straight answer. I think a lot can be learned from this thread:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45520

Notice they are called "Divine Messengers" throughout that thread.

 

[mostly harmless]

In the book I was reading I thought it was interesting that for the italian Strega Lucifer is/was a god.

Bridgit was a celtic goddess who was cannonized...

Just random thoughts I had this morning that I thought would lead to interesting disscusssion.

 

[MaddLlama]

I don't think there's any evidence for the old gods becoming angels, but many cultures took gods that were so ingrained in the culture and turned them into Saints when Catholicism replaced the indigenous beliefs (Brigid is one of the most famous).