Are all religions cults?

[savagewind]

Could'st list some of the ways it is dangerous, and to whom?

The group is dangerous to the children of Jehovah's Witnesses. They are raised without associations with the outside world and then if they discover that they really are not "God's truth" then they are alone and sometimes people who have left the group feel so very much deserted and alone that they have killed themselves. It is dangerous to a person's conscience as I have heard about many JWs who do not believe in it anymore but stay so that they can keep their social status. Also, they refuse blood for themselves and their children and some have died because of their very strict interpretation of Scripture. And that interpretation comes from their governing body which they follow.

 

[savagewind]

A group need not have a charismatic leader to be considered a cult. The Jehovah's Witnesses cult it is a cult of a charismatic doctrine, imo.

 

[Audie]

The group is dangerous to the children of Jehovah's Witnesses. They are raised without associations with the outside world and then if they discover that they really are not "God's truth" then they are alone and sometimes people who have left the group feel so very much deserted and alone that they have killed themselves. It is dangerous to a person's conscience as I have heard about many JWs who do not believe in it anymore but stay so that they can keep their social status. Also, they refuse blood for themselves and their children and some have died because of their very strict interpretation of Scripture. And that interpretation comes from their governing body which they follow.

I guess I have heard of those..
Seems to me that they pose a danger to
society as a whole, though relatively minor as
they are not numerous.
However, a nation composed of such would
not last long.
For one, in today's hyper competitive world,
regressive anti intellectualism would not be
indulged for long.

As someone (me) put it, there will be no
angel with fiery sword (that turns this way
and that) guarding the gate to the trailer park.

 

[Augustus]

The vast majority of dangerous groups I've encountered over the years have been Christian in nature, so apparently, "mass religions" sometimes can meet the criteria.

And presumably these are smaller scale, tight-knit sects rather than mainstream denominations/congregations/groups/etc. that the vast majority of religious adherents belong to.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And presumably these are smaller scale, tight-knit sects rather than mainstream denominations/congregations/groups/etc. that the vast majority of religious adherents belong to.

Would a non-denominational megachurch qualify as a "smaller-scale, tight-knit sect?"

 

[Augustus]

Would a non-denominational megachurch qualify as a "smaller-scale, tight-knit sect?"

In theory I guess so.

 

[Katzpur]

Like many of that list we could apply to our schooling system or government control, which defines us all in a cult; yet many of those do not apply to all religion, they apply to specific extremist cults like Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc.

In my opinion.

And in your opinion, wizanda, why is Mormonism an "extremist cult"? Let's talk about it, okay?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In theory I guess so.

Interesting.

 

[Audie]

And in your opinion, wizanda, why is Mormonism an "extremist cult"? Let's talk about it, okay?

A lot less so than it used to be, no?

 

[Augustus]

Interesting.

Just to clarify as my wording wasn't the best: by that I mean in theory one could be, not that they all necessarily are.

 

[wizanda]

why is Mormonism an "extremist cult"?

Mormonism has gone through many changes over the years, where it has had to change policy because of extremist mind sets; the list of points in Steven Hassan’s BITE Model
is referring to some of the Mormon characteristics, such as excommunication, youth indoctrination, etc...

If we look through the list, we can clearly see there are quite a few where they are referencing Mormonism or other similar religious cult structures.

Sorry btw, and please take into account the rest of my posts, where I'm defining most religions as cults as well, as they play follow the leader, and are not about self enlightenment...

All of us should be children of God, with the power of angels, and we've been taught to be slaves to religious cults.

In my opinion.

 

[Windwalker]

1 Corinthians 6:18...."Flee from fornication."
Is this cultish?

1 Corinthians 5:13....“Expel the wicked man from among you.”
Is this cultish?

John 15:14...."You are my friends if you do what I command."
Is this cultish?

Only in the ways some Christian cults read and apply those in cultish ways.

 

[dianaiad]

Did you really want an Ayn Rand book or were you testing them?

Oh, if they'd had one, in paper back, I would have purchased it. However, I had a feeling that they wouldn't. After all, they had copies of 'Jennifer Government," "American Fascists" and Jack London's "the Iron Heel" in the front window, along with "F@#$ Trump" banners and P.ussy hats from the knitting shop next door. Pretty obvious.

I remember thinking two things:

First, if everybody was welcome no matter what, there would be no need for a sign.
Second, I wouldn't be welcome, because my political opinions do not swing far left. As a libertarian, I'm not quite as far right as the left wants to paint me....but I'll admit to being loud about those things I truly disagree with.

As Ravelry and their new policy, and as this book store (and the knitting shop next door) also show, the left 'policy of inclusion' totally ignores the first amendment. Freedom of speech is only allowed if the speech agrees with them. Otherwise? We'll picket you, publish your name on the internet so that you can be publically shamed, boycotted and your business ruined, block entrance to your businesses or places of worship, and other wise do violence to you, up to and including destroying property, etc.

But this little rant is very off topic for the thread, which is 'are all religions cults?" Well, they are. Not all are groups that are mind and behavior control groups, however. I think that the far left in this nation, however, IS such a group, and absolutely qualifies under the BITE model.

(In all honesty, some of the far right political groups do, too, but from where I sit, I think that while there are some far right groups that qualify, pretty much everybody on the left does. )

 

[Windwalker]

First, if everybody was welcome no matter what, there would be no need for a sign.

People puts signs like this up because cleary in some places in our country they are not welcomed. It's a place to say, you will be safe here from those sorts who might harass you for being a minority.

Second, I wouldn't be welcome, because my political opinions do not swing far left. As a libertarian, I'm not quite as far right as the left wants to paint me....but I'll admit to being loud about those things I truly disagree with.

If you go into a store you know has a different political bent then your own, aren't you being the jerk to deliberately provoke confrontation by shoving their face in your political views? Imagine a neo-atheist walking into a bookstore run by fundamentalist Christians and start shoving in their faces in his differences of opinion to puff his pride up, "Excuse me, but do you have a copy of the God Delusion I can buy here? Hahaha... ". Who's the jerk there? The right wing Christians, or the neo-atheist? Clearly, it's not the store owners.

 

[dianaiad]

And in your opinion, wizanda, why is Mormonism an "extremist cult"? Let's talk about it, okay?

Mormonism is not an 'extremist cult' and except for when it was first being formed, never has been, under the common understanding of that term.

I notice that one link was to the 'excommunication' section of an anti-Mormon site (I call it anti-Mormon because it gets some rather important facts wrong...like the excommunication of J. Michael Quinn...and doesn't bother to correct them). Notice the reasons for excommunication: abortion, transsexual operation, attempted murder, rape, forcible sexual abuse, intentionally inflicting serious physical injuries on others, adultery, fornication, homosexual relations, child abuse (sexual or physical), spouse abuse, deliberate abandonment of family responsibilities, robbery, burglary, theft, sale of illegal drugs, fraud, perjury, or false swearing.

Please note; all these things are matters of deliberate choices, of wrongful and hurtful actions. BEING a homosexual, for instance, is not on the list. Simply having different opinions regarding the teachings of the church is not on the list. In order to be an apostate, one must actively teach against church beliefs; publish articles and/or books denouncing the teachings of the church as wrong. THAT is why the 'September six' went. I mean, really....if one doesn't believe that the church one belongs to teaches the correct things, then why is one a member?

As for Quinn, HE was excommunicated because he committed adultery; he left his wife and children and went with his gay lover. It had nothing to do with what he wrote, which (I've read the book y'all think got him 'ex'd'...blech) and that didn't do it. However, adultery will do it every time.

Now here's the thing about excommunication and the CoJCoLDS: excommunication is a 'second chance.' We do NOT shun excommunicated members. Quite the opposite. We are SUPPOSED to love, support and help them, whether they choose to come back or not. "Shunning" is not something Latter-day saints do. Family is more important. It's done TO us all the time, but we aren't supposed to DO it to anybody.

It is true that individual situations alter cases; I know a certain orthodontist in town who left his wife and eight children to have an affair with his office whatever she was. He refused to pay child support. He was, and remains, a complete jerk (he's on his third wife). His first wife has had to take him to court many times in the past few years, until their youngest finally graduated high school. None of them became dentists, btw, and I can certainly understand why neither she, nor any of her friends, had anything to do with him. Not because he'd messed with Mormonism, but because he was such a dirtwad to HER.

Absent this level of jerkdom, however, 'shunning' is not supposed to happen. Rebaptism after excommunication is the one time when the 'sinner' can be assured (in our beliefs) that ALL sins are forgiven. S/he can stop blaming him/herself, and be free of guilt. It's a good thing.

One chooses to belong to a group because one admires the ethics, the morals and the rules abided by that group. If you want to talk about behavior modification, etc., try joining the army and deciding that you don't feel like obeying an order that day.

 

[wizanda]

But we have learnt much from the Romans and have arguably surpassed them.

We're still under the Roman Empire, we pay Roman taxes, with coins of our emperors, we have Roman roads, Senate in America, with the same corrupt political structure...

Rome never fell, it still stands, and still has a lot of power behind the scenes.

Biblically it is the final kingdom to end, before we move on to an age of Godliness; yet it will be removed globally in a day by force, as many people like to live under it, and prove they don't like the way God made our reality.

I don't know if I want Government to be intertwined with anything religious

This is part of the point of us all being inside a cult already, our government in the UK has 26 seats appointed to the Church of England in the House of Lords; in the past it was more blatant, now they just sit in control with the Queen as the head of the Church, same as it was in Rome.

In the Dooms Day Code by Tony Robinson he interviews senators, and politicians, how they base policy on what the religious constituency put forward...

Government is meant to represent the people, and since the people are already indoctrinated the divide means they stay that way.

If government was real, like it actually worked to create the best system of society, religious ethics, and values have to be ascribed, else they end up with a flawed system.

Religion does not preclude great human accomplishments. Neither do they necessarily lead to them.

Most of the human wonders of the world, are due to religion....

If religion was allowed to advance into something more functional for the whole of society, rather than just maintaining some historical value, and ceremony, it would help humanity evolve as much as the concepts within it.

Example?

Capitalism Vs Communism, we've been told it is an automatic failure, yet most haven't been told that the CIA have done everything possible to destabilize any alternatives.

where is the line drawn exactly though?

The divide between a religion and philosophy is one is a group of people who follow a fundamental belief, and philosophy is to love studying the wisdom to make the beliefs....

A cult tells us not to question those beliefs, and to simply remain within them.

In my opinion.

 

[dianaiad]

People puts signs like this up because cleary in some places in our country they are not welcomed. It's a place to say, you will be safe here from those sorts who might harass you for being a minority.

Windwalker, I was in Los Angeles. On Sunset Blvd, to be precise. I am a fat 'white' woman not wearing bike or running gear...or office attire from Prada. I was holding a diet coke, not fancy designer water, and my entire outfit was from Wal Mart. I'm a conservative. Just how 'minority' can one GET down there?

If you go into a store you know has a different political bent then your own, aren't you being the jerk to deliberately provoke confrontation by shoving their face in your political views? Imagine a neo-atheist walking into a bookstore run by fundamentalist Christians and start shoving in their faces in his differences of opinion to puff his pride up, "Excuse me, but do you have a copy of the God Delusion I can buy here? Hahaha... ". Who's the jerk there? The right wing Christians, or the neo-atheist? Clearly, it's not the store owners.

A simple question (and I am quoting myself here)

"Do you have a copy of "Anthem" by Ayn Rand?" Is not being arrogant. Given the three books displayed in the window (all dystopian novels, albeit resulting in Fascist societies rather than totalitarian far left ones) is not unreasonable. "Anthem" is a dystopian novel. The reaction was very similar to one I got when I walked into a ritzy clothing store many years ago, where the sales girl looked me up and down and said "We don't have anything for you." (well, no, they wouldn't have...their sizes didn't go past size 14 in the 'old' sizing). I got SUCH a look from the bookstore owner! She said that they don't carry anything by Ayn Rand...or Levin or O'Reilly or Limbaugh or anybody else that far away from reality. Perhaps if I went to the Fox News web site, I could find people willing to sell garbage to me, but she would not.

Yikes.

(grin) Makes me remember when my twelve year old daughter went into a fundamentalist Christian book store back in 1988, asking for a "Shakespearian bible," one where all the biblical quotes from Shakespeare were noted. They didn't have one, but the clerk noticed the CTR ring my daughter was wearing (stands for "Choose the Right.." the folks who have "WWJD" [What Would Jesus Do?"] rings stole the idea from us...) and figured out that she was a Mormon. She literally pushed my daughter out of the store screaming that "Mormons aren't Christians and have no business in a Christian store!"

Now this bookstore owner's reaction wasn't nearly so, er, physical, but the feeling was pretty much the same. I thanked her politely and left, quietly. I was not welcome and did not 'feel safe."


But it doesn't surprise me a bit that you would consider a simple request for a book to be 'shoving their face in my political views." I have noticed that the far left...as with most mind control groups, consider the slightest disagreement or side slant view of their opinions to be full on attacks with all guns blazing.

 

[savagewind]

Now, we know! Thank you @dianaiad for that good/bad story.

Your examples of those salespeople just cause me to believe more than ever that this World is crazy!

And, just so you know, I think it is wonderful that crazy people believe me to be so or seem to. Wonderful because I am nothing like them and they are nothing like me so how can we all be the same? @wizanda

 

[Katzpur]

And in your opinion, wizanda, why is Mormonism an "extremist cult"? Let's talk about it, okay?

A lot less so than it used to be, no?

Mormonism has gone through many changes over the years, where it has had to change policy because of extremist mind sets; the list of points in Steven Hassan’s BITE Model
is referring to some of the Mormon characteristics, such as excommunication, youth indoctrination, etc...

If we look through the list, we can clearly see there are quite a few where they are referencing Mormonism or other similar religious cult structures.

Sorry btw, and please take into account the rest of my posts, where I'm defining most religions as cults as well, as they play follow the leader, and are not about self enlightenment...

All of us should be children of God, with the power of angels, and we've been taught to be slaves to religious cults.

In my opinion.

I am actually going to chat with Katzpur about the BITE model and Mormonism. She found the model fascinating and agrees that some point apply to the Mormon church.

Actually, @Israel Khan, I think some points on Hassan's BITE Model apply to virtually every Abrahamic-based belief system there is, including Mormonism. I am back from my overseas trip, and would be interesting in talking about this model further, in order to clarify exactly to what extent the points apply to my religion. I definitely would have a different take on the subject than John Dehlin does. Would you like to start a new thread?

 

[Katzpur]

Mormonism is not an 'extremist cult' and except for when it was first being formed, never has been, under the common understanding of that term.

I notice that one link was to the 'excommunication' section of an anti-Mormon site (I call it anti-Mormon because it gets some rather important facts wrong...like the excommunication of J. Michael Quinn...and doesn't bother to correct them). Notice the reasons for excommunication: abortion, transsexual operation, attempted murder, rape, forcible sexual abuse, intentionally inflicting serious physical injuries on others, adultery, fornication, homosexual relations, child abuse (sexual or physical), spouse abuse, deliberate abandonment of family responsibilities, robbery, burglary, theft, sale of illegal drugs, fraud, perjury, or false swearing.

Please note; all these things are matters of deliberate choices, of wrongful and hurtful actions. BEING a homosexual, for instance, is not on the list. Simply having different opinions regarding the teachings of the church is not on the list. In order to be an apostate, one must actively teach against church beliefs; publish articles and/or books denouncing the teachings of the church as wrong. THAT is why the 'September six' went. I mean, really....if one doesn't believe that the church one belongs to teaches the correct things, then why is one a member?

As for Quinn, HE was excommunicated because he committed adultery; he left his wife and children and went with his gay lover. It had nothing to do with what he wrote, which (I've read the book y'all think got him 'ex'd'...blech) and that didn't do it. However, adultery will do it every time.

Now here's the thing about excommunication and the CoJCoLDS: excommunication is a 'second chance.' We do NOT shun excommunicated members. Quite the opposite. We are SUPPOSED to love, support and help them, whether they choose to come back or not. "Shunning" is not something Latter-day saints do. Family is more important. It's done TO us all the time, but we aren't supposed to DO it to anybody.

It is true that individual situations alter cases; I know a certain orthodontist in town who left his wife and eight children to have an affair with his office whatever she was. He refused to pay child support. He was, and remains, a complete jerk (he's on his third wife). His first wife has had to take him to court many times in the past few years, until their youngest finally graduated high school. None of them became dentists, btw, and I can certainly understand why neither she, nor any of her friends, had anything to do with him. Not because he'd messed with Mormonism, but because he was such a dirtwad to HER.

Absent this level of jerkdom, however, 'shunning' is not supposed to happen. Rebaptism after excommunication is the one time when the 'sinner' can be assured (in our beliefs) that ALL sins are forgiven. S/he can stop blaming him/herself, and be free of guilt. It's a good thing.

One chooses to belong to a group because one admires the ethics, the morals and the rules abided by that group. If you want to talk about behavior modification, etc., try joining the army and deciding that you don't feel like obeying an order that day.

This is perhaps the best post I've ever read on the subject of excommunication within the LDS Church. I hope people reading it will trust that what you've said is true.