Apostates of Islam

[ProudMuslim]

Lava,as far as i'm aware there is no stoning mentioned in the Quran,however the Ahadith does and thats the problem

So if you were a Muslim, will you be that confused about it?

Will you go with the flow, or will you research more? will you be objective, debate and ask questions or will you stick to every thing attributed to Muhammed (PBUH) as long as there is a 'sahih' signature at the end?

 

[England my lionheart]

So if you were a Muslim, will you be that confused about it?

Will you go with the flow, or will you research more? will you be objective, debate and ask questions or will you stick to every thing attributed to Muhammed (PBUH) as long as there is a 'sahih' signature at the end?

Good question PM,it is difficult for me to think as a Muslim but if i were i would have serious issues with the Ahadith and even more issues with so called scholars,from a non believers perspective i cannot understand the importance of Ahadith in the present.
As for Sahih and inaad concerning Ahadith what else is there for the lay Muslim

 

[Fatihah]

As i posted,i removed the link because it is in Arabic but i will put it back if you wish,and it's not a simmilar Ahadith,it is the same one and can be found in Bukhari and Muslim and as for fabricating this Ahadith what for,although the translation differs slightly the meaning is exactly the same,Muhammed was asked if he wanted someone killed to which he replied in the affirmative and then the murder was carried out.
Whats the problem here,Saudi have no problem with this Ahadith why have you,IMO the best place for these hadith is in the bin.

Response: It's not a different translation. If it is, then name the translator and name the site in which you got the hadith from, if you are truthful.

It's one thing to fabricate, but it's another thing to actually not even want to admit to it when everyone here can see it. Whether or not you admit to it is not my issue. As long as the person's true character and intent is exposed, I'm fine with that. And from your actions, we surely see yours. Killing someone because they "said" something injurious is not the same as killing someone because they actually did something injurious. But since you insist in this rhetoric, then let's see how far you'll go. Is saying "I'm going to slap you" the same as actually slapping somebody?

 

[keithnurse]

Over at www.theoneislam.com I told them "I have spoken with Muslims who say the death penalty for apostasy is unIslamic because it contradicts the Qur'an verse "ther is no compulsion in religion". The people at oneIslam told me in response "the penalty for leaving Islam is death. That's no secret. The Muslims who say it's unIslamic want to deny the truth, I guess."

 

[Breathe]

Over at www.theoneislam.com I told them "I have spoken with Muslims who say the death penalty for apostasy is unIslamic because it contradicts the Qur'an verse "ther is no compulsion in religion". The people at oneIslam told me in response "the penalty for leaving Islam is death. That's no secret. The Muslims who say it's unIslamic want to deny the truth, I guess."

Yet another reason for people not to even consider Islam, I guess.
At least with Christianity you can leave it..

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Response: Again, you admittedly said that you have not read the whole post so it would be appreciated if you. That way you would not have the view you have and attribute things and meanings to my post which I clearly have not said.

I specifically said I that I had read your whole post.

Just because I said that the punishment for apostasy is death does not mean that, as you have put it," assumed apostates are psychopathic murderers, unless they make some effort, or provide some proof, that they are not" So please do not add words or meaning because nothing I've said suggests that.

Everything you've said suggests that. You've repeatedly said the punishment for apostates is death....unless they wish for peace. You've repeatedly mentioned self-defense and someone trying to kill you when that has nothing to do with apostates -- self-defense is a general principle, you would defend yourself from anyone, not just apostates. And yet you keep soldering these two completely different objects together, when one is mentioned, you automatically start talking about the other. There's an inherent paranoia and prejudice in this, if you can't see that, you are simply choosing to look away.

Is the punishment for Egyptians death....unless they wish for peace?
Is the punishment for Chinese death...unless they wish for peace?
Surely you agree with those statements, I mean we all have the right to self-defense if someone tries to kill us, right? :areyoucra

What blind, bigoted nonsense.

I clearly said that the tactic to embrace islam then leave was a war strategy by non-muslims to cause disunity in the muslim community and to get closer to the muslims in order to kill them.

Or the fear of this was a propaganda strategy in order to justify persecution. But either way, yes you clearly said that and it's clearly irrelevant to the 21st century. I see Muslim sectarians killing each other constantly all over the world, I see Muslims from many countries killing and getting killed in political conflicts, but I don't remember the last time a terrorist apostate cell claimed responsibility for a suicide bombing attack.

Also, if some psycho's intention was to get close to Muslims in order to kill them (why? who?), wouldn't they carry out these acts while they were close to Muslims, not after they leave Islam? In fact, they might not even become an apostate ever; but they would certainly be a convert at some time. So the way you have described these psychopathic non-Muslim terrorist sleeper cells, which are so dangerous and prolific that extreme measures must be taken to deter them, it sounds like the people you should be most suspicious of are recent converts, not apostates. "The punishment for people who try to join Islam is death....unless they wish for peace."

But in any case to have irrational fears that another group of people are trying to get you, that is the basis of prejudice, racism and bigotry.

Nothing in which I just stated even remotely suggest that all apostates are assumed psychopathetic murderers. If that was the case, then they wouldn't be granted peace if they wished for it because they are psychopathic murderers.

I meant they are assumed psychopaths with the intention or predisposition to murder Muslims, not that it was assumed they had already murdered in the past.

Naturally, the more severe a punishment is, the less chances there are in somebody committing the act that leads to the punishment.

You could use that logic to justify virtually any cruelty.

So the punishment for apostasy is applied not because we assume that apostates are psycopathic murders but to scare off any person who wishes to embrace islam then leave as a tactic to killing muslims.

So there should be punishment for killers, not apostates.

 

[Fatihah]

Everything you've said suggests that.

Response: Unless you can highlight any word of mine which is synonymous to "pyochopathic murders", then your claim is stands on nothing. You can't claim that a statement means something if the words in your claim are not there in the statement.

Quote: Mr. Sprinkles
You've repeatedly said the punishment for apostates is death....unless they wish for peace. You've repeatedly mentioned self-defense and someone trying to kill you when that has nothing to do with apostates -- self-defense is a general principle, you would defend yourself from anyone, not just apostates. And yet you keep soldering these two completely different objects together, when one is mentioned, you automatically start talking about the other. There's an inherent paranoia and prejudice in this, if you can't see that, you are simply choosing to look away.

Response: You said: "You've repeatedly mentioned self-defense and someone trying to kill you when that has nothing to do with apostates". Now you must explain why this has nothing to do with apostates. The topic of the thread is what is the ruling when dealing with apostates and when I supply the answer as to the ruling you tell me that it has nothing to do with apostates. I'm talking about apostates in my whole explaination. So now you tell us how this has nothing to do with apostates.

Quote: Mr. Sprinkles
Also, if some psycho's intention was to get close to Muslims in order to kill them (why? who?), wouldn't they carry out these acts while they were close to Muslims, not after they leave Islam? In fact, they might not even become an apostate ever; but they would certainly be a convert at some time. So the way you have described these psychopathic non-Muslim terrorist sleeper cells, which are so dangerous and prolific that extreme measures must be taken to deter them, it sounds like the people you should be most suspicious of are recent converts, not apostates. "The punishment for people who try to join Islam is death....unless they wish for peace."

Response: No it would not make sense to attack when they are close to them because how would they get away? Secondly, they don't have any back up so what would that accomplish? It makes more sense to find out how the muslims operate so when they leave they can join their party and have a better chance of attack.

 

[Breathe]

Response: No it would not make sense to attack when they are close to them because how would they get away?

But they couldn't get away if they left Islam anyway, because they'd be killed!

Secondly, they don't have any back up so what would that accomplish? It makes more sense to find out how the muslims operate so when they leave they can join their party and have a better chance of attack.

No. They can easily convert and kill as a fake Muslim, probably even better.

 

[Fatihah]

Um.

Wrong.
Lying is a sin, you know.

Response: Again, I said that I have never talked about people "pretending to be apostates to attack islam" nor can you quote anything which says otherwise. In response you quote me saying the following as evidence:

"Going to war by pretending to be a menmber of the opposing religion=/= trying to take someone's life away OR making life difficult for them".

They are saying two different things. My quote speaks of a person pretending to be of another religion while your words speak of pretending to be an apostate. In other words, a person who pretends to be a person who embraces a religion then rejects it because that is what an apostate is. My words clearly speak of the person "being" an apostate not "pretending to be an apostate" as you say.

Lying, is a sin? To some degree yes. But unfortunately this is not a case of lying but the inability to comprehend on your part.

 

[Breathe]

Lying, is a sin? To some degree yes. But unfortunately this is not a case of lying but the inability to comprehend on your part.

Obviously it's on your part, because everything I've pointed out you've ignored and you just keep saying I'm the one who doesn't understand, and you've been doing it to everyone else. However, I don't believe ad hominem attacks are a way to solve anything.

... but... don't you think it might be you who's misunderstanding here? I don't seem to be having much trouble misunderstanding others.

 

[Fatihah]

But they couldn't get away if they left Islam anyway, because they'd be killed!

Response: Not unless they wish for peace.

Quote: Odion
No. They can easily convert and kill as a fake Muslim, probably even better.

Response: By doing so would make them apostates so it's all relative.

 

[Breathe]

Response: By doing so would make them apostates so it's all relative.

Fair enough.

But ultimately, what about those who leave Islam who do not wish to harm Islam? Will they be killed? Should they be killed?

 

[Fatihah]

Fair enough.

But ultimately, what about those who leave Islam who do not wish to harm Islam? Will they be killed? Should they be killed?

Response: Not at all. They should be granted peace.

 

[Breathe]

Response: Not at all. They should be granted peace.

Awesome.
Why do some scholars not believe this though?

 

[Fatihah]

Awesome.
Why do some scholars not believe this though?

Response: Because of their own agenda. Even you can open the qur'an and see that within all the 114 chapters and the 6,600 plus verses, not once is there a rule on apostasy. You do not have to be a scholar to see this.

The hadiths do not have authority over the qur'an. In other words, the hadiths can not have a law mentioned for islam that the qur'an does not. If it did, then that would lead to the logical question of why have two different books of law instead of mentioning it in just one? The hadiths are basically the information in islamic history. It's a collection of how muslims lived their lives throughout history. The sunnah is the hadiths that relate to prophet Muhammad's life.

In the sunnah, there is not a single hadith which clearly says that a person should be killed just because they changed their religion and left islam even if they want peace. So if any scholar does otherwise, they are doing so because of their own hatred for non-muslims, not because islam teaches it. Are there hadiths that say to kill an apostate? Yes. Are there any that says to kill even when they wish for peace? No. So how do we resolve this issue? Are they to be killed even if they wish for peace? Well what does the qur'an say about this?

(Taken from post 919)
In ch. 4:88-91, we are told that the muslims were in a disagreement as to how to deal with the hypocrites. You see, there is a difference between a hypocrite and an apostate. A hypocrite is one who declares themself as a muslim and/or goes about preaching to others to follow the religion of islam but all the while they them self do not practice what they preach . An apostate on the other hand is one who openly declares themself as a muslim or take the shahada but later they openly reject the religion. The solution was for the hypocrites to migrate with Muhammad as a test to their faith;(verse 89) for if they are truly muslims they should willingly accept. If they turn away, then seize them and kill them because their turning away would confirm their apostasy.

But now let's read the following verse. (Verse 90)
"Except those who are connected with a people between whom and you there is a pact, or those who come to you, while their hearts shrink from fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had pleased, He could have given them power against you, then they would have surely fought you. So, if they keep aloof from you and fight you not, and make you an offer of peace, then Allah has allowed you no way against them".

The qur'an clearly says to hold back if they refrain from fighting and want peace. You see it yourself. So a scholar who says otherwise is a person who only wishes for their own agenda to be followed for their own personal reasons. So what needs to be done is for the non-muslims as well as the muslims to accept this clear evidence together that this is the true teaching of islam and fight against those unjust rulers and scholars you want to tell us otherwise.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: It's not a different translation. If it is, then name the translator and name the site in which you got the hadith from, if you are truthful.

It's one thing to fabricate, but it's another thing to actually not even want to admit to it when everyone here can see it. Whether or not you admit to it is not my issue. As long as the person's true character and intent is exposed, I'm fine with that. And from your actions, we surely see yours. Killing someone because they "said" something injurious is not the same as killing someone because they actually did something injurious. But since you insist in this rhetoric, then let's see how far you'll go. Is saying "I'm going to slap you" the same as actually slapping somebody?

What a load of Camel droppings,so you are contesting the motive for the murder not the actual murder,are you saying it was self defense even though they tricked the victim,although this does'nt concern me really it's just another Ahadith,this thread is about Apostates,if i remember you tried this on before.

 

[Fatihah]

What a load of Camel droppings,so you are contesting the motive for the murder not the actual murder,are you saying it was self defense even though they tricked the victim,although this does'nt concern me really it's just another Ahadith,this thread is about Apostates,if i remember you tried this on before.

Response: You have beautifully unanswered the question.

 

[England my lionheart]

If you want the link go to Islam - Resources and information ommit the eng if you want Arabic

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: You have beautifully unanswered the question.

How can you unanswer a question:areyoucra,i have never heard that anywhere except from you,i wish i had thought of it before imagine,school would have been a breeze.

 

[Fatihah]

Obviously it's on your part, because everything I've pointed out you've ignored and you just keep saying I'm the one who doesn't understand, and you've been doing it to everyone else. However, I don't believe ad hominem attacks are a way to solve anything.

Response: I see a statement. Where's the proof?

Quote: Odion
... but... don't you think it might be you who's misunderstanding here?

Response: Not at all.