apostasy from Islam

[gnostic]

Instead of putting this question in Einstien's "Ask any questions about Islam!", it would probably be best to start a different topic.

Leaving Islam is a very sensitive subject, but it does need to be discussed or debated.

Most people would have to go into hiding if they are to leave their faith, such as Islam, because of the consequence. It is one thing to leave a non-Muslim religion and become estrange with family, people and community because they walk out on their previous faith, but it seem whole different matter when a person leave Islam.

The consequence, namely violence and death can result, often by murder, but it is called honor-killing in other part of Islamic societies. Even in moderate Muslim family, any apostaste might risk life and limb for leaving their religion.

People who leave any religion should be able to do so freely, without risk of injury or death.

Is something being done to protect those who leave Islam, and make illegal for honor-killing to take place?

 

[Ibrahim Al-Amin]

Instead of putting this question in Einstien's "Ask any questions about Islam!", it would probably be best to start a different topic.

Leaving Islam is a very sensitive subject, but it does need to be discussed or debated.

Most people would have to go into hiding if they are to leave their faith, such as Islam, because of the consequence. It is one thing to leave a non-Muslim religion and become estrange with family, people and community because they walk out on their previous faith, but it seem whole different matter when a person leave Islam.

The consequence, namely violence and death can result, often by murder, but it is called honor-killing in other part of Islamic societies. Even in moderate Muslim family, any apostaste might risk life and limb for leaving their religion.

People who leave any religion should be able to do so freely, without risk of injury or death.

Is something being done to protect those who leave Islam, and make illegal for honor-killing to take place?

Are you confusing cultural issues in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan with the religion of Islam? Where in the Quran does it state, "honor killing?"

On the contrary, in numerous verses of the Quran is stated, "There is no compulsion in religion," meaning you can believe whatever you want to believe. Regarding leaving Islam, though I'm not a scholar, the only verse I can remember states something like it is an unforgiveable sin, but I can't remember the exact words. (TheTruth, help!) The Quran does not state to murder someone who leaves Islam.

The problem with Western perceptions of Islam is that there is a constant blur between what is stated in the Quran and how cultures of the region typically exist. Many of old tribal codes remain, although certain things are not even mentioned in the Quran.

For example: The veil. The only verse in the Quran regarding the veiling of women is about the veiling of Muhammad's wives. Women began wearing the veil when the Arabian cultures encountered the Greek and Persian women (yes, they did it first). So although it is believed to be an Islamic ideal, it is actually a cultural ideal. So your suggestions of "honor killing" should be directed at a cultural forum, not a religious forum.

 

[Nehustan]

You might find reading this thread interesting. It outlines opinions on apostacy, how it was dealt with, why, in which circumstances, some thoughts on the theology of 'murtad', a link to that most Islamic of sources 'wikipedia' on the specific, but does not deal at all with the situation of honour killings by family which must certainly be considered to be outside of jurisprudence.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/27646-another-view-outside.html
​

 

[Steve]

Are you confusing cultural issues in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan with the religion of Islam? Where in the Quran does it state, "honor killing?"

it may not say 'honor killing' - but the theme is there.

"Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin" quran 9.66

 

[TashaN]

On the contrary, in numerous verses of the Quran is stated, "There is no compulsion in religion," meaning you can believe whatever you want to believe. Regarding leaving Islam, though I'm not a scholar, the only verse I can remember states something like it is an unforgiveable sin, but I can't remember the exact words.

Do you mean this verse:

"Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin most heinous indeed". (Quran 4:48)

It's better to read this link which brother Nehustan has posted already.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/27646-another-view-outside.html

post # 10

In answer to what historically happened to people who recanted their 'faith' it really depended on the level of their knowledge and their intention. This state has a name in Islam, where apostacy is known as Murtad, the ultimate punishment for which was execution. This said however the ultimate sanction of the law is seldom meted out upon the guilty. If the person was a simple man who spoke to no one (if he didn't speak about it no one would know, but that's another argument) the punishment would have been simple, merciful, and with that persons general well being taken into consideration. If however the person was well educated and used heresy and apostacy as a method of sedition within the Islamic Nation (ummah) then after several warnings the maximum penalty would be effected, quite similar to treason and sedition laws in many contemporary nations.

It consider as treason if you betrayed your king or your country and you may be judged by the death penalty in many countries, think how it would be if that was toward your creator, Allah Almighty.

The wisdom here is that if someone was unaware of Allah and Islam so "There is no compulsion in religion," but if you knew the truth and rejected it so this is a different story which may imply sometimes to work against Allah and Muslims with their enemies.

 

[Popeyesays]

it may not say 'honor killing' - but the theme is there.

"Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin" quran 9.66

"Honor killing" is social, not religious.

Let me give you an example of what happened to a Turkoman Baha`i in Iran when he announced to his family (muslims) he had decided to become Baha`i. Yes, I got this story directly from the young man when he and his family anaged to emigrate from Iran to the U.S.. This was in 1867 or 88 when I heard the story.

The man had been raised muslim in a small town oin the border area of Turkey, Iraq and Iran. There was only one pharmacy in the town which was operated by a Baha`i pharmacist, so this individual had nearly daily dealings with the Baha`i during the sickness of his mother. He learned about the Baha`i faith at that time, and chose to become Baha`i. He was very happy with his decision and held a party to which he invited all his relatives and in-laws. After dinner he made his announcement, and his uncles on both sides beat him nearly to death.

This was never a sanctioned event - no legal authorities were drawn in, no mullahs declared a fatwa. This was merely what a family of Turkish extraction raised in Iran considered appropriate to deal with one family member shaming the rest of the family.
It can best be described as an honor killing, though the victim actually survived.

It was not because of Islam that it happened it was because of the cultures of the people. Islam was laid over that culture like a mostly transparent layer, but the culture still shows through from beneath.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Ibrahim Al-Amin]

it may not say 'honor killing' - but the theme is there.

"Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin" quran 9.66

Theme? You're obivously the expert, as you clearly have read the Quran and understand its nuances. Who is the Quran referencing? Who is "We?" If you answer that, you'll learn that your understanding is inaccurate. Here's a hint: "We" are not the humans.

 

[jamaesi]

Theme? You're obivously the expert, as you clearly have read the Quran and understand its nuances. Who is the Quran referencing? Who is "We?" If you answer that, you'll learn that your understanding is inaccurate. Here's a hint: "We" are not the humans.

Oh context, how you foil the best misconceptions!

 

[Ibrahim Al-Amin]

Oh context, how you foil the best misconceptions!

Amazing, it is, what context can do.

Hey Jamaesi, did you get my PM? I've sent a few with no responses and am wondering if there's a problem.

 

[jamaesi]

No, sorry, just been a bit busy to answer it in-depth. I'll get right on it now!
:bounce

(edit: Just noticed you said plural, I've only gotten one PM from you...)

 

[gnostic]

So although it is believed to be an Islamic ideal, it is actually a cultural ideal. So your suggestions of "honor killing" should be directed at a cultural forum, not a religious forum.

Perhaps, Ibrahim Al-Amin. Perhaps, if Islam didn't overlay so so much of culture or law, then perhaps I could distinguish between what is culture and what is religion. The two seemed to blur. Islam is entrenched in the Middle Eastern cultures, that it is indeed difficult to separate the two.

In the broader sense of the word "culture", this would also embrace religion as well as art, literature, and music.

I can perhaps distinguish Indonesian culture from Islam, but it is neigh impossible to do so with Saudi Arabia.

However, I have brought up the subject of apostasy, which is a person leaving one's faith, and how people (Muslims) reacts to it. I am not asking of Islamic solution, but what is the laws of each Muslim-populated country is doing to prevent people from taking the laws into their hands against apostaste (sorry, I am not sure if I spelt this right)?

It consider as treason if you betrayed your king or your country and you may be judged by the death penalty in many countries, think how it would be if that was toward your creator, Allah Almighty.

Even if Allah is treated like king among the Muslims, shouldn't it be between Allah and the apostate?

Do people have the right to take another's life or be punished, if a person become atheist or convert to another religion? If a person have the right to choose Islam, then shouldn't that same person be allowed to leave Islam?

If a person can't leave Islam, then isn't it a double-standard, when you speak of "free choice" or "no compulsion" in regarding to religion.

 

[TashaN]

Even if Allah is treated like king among the Muslims, shouldn't it be between Allah and the apostate?

Allah made this law for us.

Do people have the right to take another's life or be punished, if a person become atheist or convert to another religion? If a person have the right to choose Islam, then shouldn't that same person be allowed to leave Islam?

No one told you to go around insulting islam and make problems in the Muslims society, just leave the religion if you don't want it but don't make problems and have fun of Islam and his prophet and believe me, i gurantee you no one will go after you saying why you are not Muslims anymore if you left in peace as you entered to it.

If a person can't leave Islam, then isn't it a double-standard, when you speak of "free choice" or "no compulsion" in regarding to religion.

When you choose this religion so you submitted already to the well of God and the rules of God.

Islam is to submit not to play and one day inside and another out.

make your mind and decide whether to submit or not.


Peace ...

 

[gnostic]

No one told you to go around insulting islam and make problems in the Muslims society, just leave the religion if you don't want it but don't make problems and have fun of Islam and his prophet and believe me, i gurantee you no one will go after you saying why you are not Muslims anymore if you left in peace as you entered to it.

I hope you are not referring to the Danish cartoons, TheTruth? Because this is a totally different topic.

I don't think any apostate left Islam, to make fun of or insult their old religion. Have you heard any apostate insulting Islam? I haven't. I don't really know what you are talking about here.

Here is a scenario for you, TheTruth:

A person who was born into a Muslim family in some Middle Eastern country, and this family migrated to another Western country to get better educations and jobs for their children. Both parents are Muslims, so the whole family are too. Let's say one of their child, grew up and decides to leave Islam, upon reaching adulthood.

If this person made up his mind to leave the religion he was born in, doesn't mean he was as you would call it, "...to submit not to play and one day inside and another out."

So my question: "Can this person leave Islam, freely?"

===========================

Sorry, TheTruth. I think you have assumed from this post that I've join Islam, and then left it. No, I'm an agnostic.

I was never a Muslim or Christian. Didn't join any other religion as well.

Was interested in Christianity when I was younger, but didn't join. I am still curious about all religion in general, but I guess I am a man with no faith....in regarding to religion, that is. I tried to see religion more from scholar's point-of-view, instead of the worshipper's.

Religion fascinates me, puzzles me, and frustrates me :banghead3 - unforunately, all at the same time.

 

[TashaN]

I hope you are not referring to the Danish cartoons, TheTruth? Because this is a totally different topic.

No, believe i'm not, i was just referring to people left Islam and they started thier propaganda against Islam and prophet Mohammed through articles or books.

Have you heard any apostate insulting Islam?

Yes alot, in the middle east.

A person who was born into a Muslim family in some Middle Eastern country, and this family migrated to another Western country to get better educations and jobs for their children. Both parents are Muslims, so the whole family are too. Let's say one of their child, grew up and decides to leave Islam, upon reaching adulthood.

If this person made up his mind to leave the religion he was born in, doesn't mean he was as you would call it, "...to submit not to play and one day inside and another out."

So my question: "Can this person leave Islam, freely?"

I'm not here to make fatwa and i'm not a scholar but a normal Muslim who knows just a little about Islam and it's sinfull to make fatwa about an issue in Islam from unauthorised people like me because i may be wrong and causing misconception about Islam.

So, my answer to this will not represent Islam because i don't know much about this complicated case which include courts and the law in that paricular country.

I'll not tell you what Islam says about this but i'll tell you about people i heard about there in some countries in the west.

AGAIN, THIS IS NOT HOW ISLAM SEE THE CASE BUT ME, "The Truth".

Usually, the family will be upset about it and they may not allow him/her to stay with them or contact with, depend in the family. For the law, nothing will happen to him because he is under that particular western country law but not an islamic one "even though most of Islamic countries law nowdays is secular one ".

Sorry, TheTruth. I think you have assumed from this post that I've join Islam, and then left it. No, I'm an agnostic.

I know i know, i just was using your post to explain, in general i mean, but of course, i didn't mean you for sure.

I was never a Muslim or Christian. Didn't join any other religion as well.

Was interested in Christianity when I was younger, but didn't join. I am still curious about all religion in general, but I guess I am a man with no faith....in regarding to religion, that is. I tried to see religion more from scholar's point-of-view, instead of the worshipper's.

I was just explaining about the law of Islam but it's not necessary that it's still practiced.

For me, i never heard that people were prescuted because they changed their religion but i heard about such a thing in Iran from people in RF, if that person was among very religious family which is cultural more than religious so they may deal with him/her personally which is not acceptable in Islam.

I'll give you an example, saudian girl went to a western country to study and she fell in love there with a christian guy who was interested in Islam and then converted to Islam, living in saudi arabia with her, after few years he changed his mind leaving the religion claiming that his wife was a terrorist then he left her and went back to his country. I read that from a daily saudian newspaper before few days. Nothing happened to that guy.

Satisfied now ...

Nowadays, it's very complicated and i don't think any country would charge someone with a death penalty because of his apostasy.

Actually, when we talk about apostasy in Islam, i was telling you about the law but when it came to real life, i doubt it nowdays, Maybe they just deal as i told you with people who left Islam and became enemy of the religion "anti-muslims".

These are just thoughts from my mind and do not take it as gurantee Islamic view on this issue but what i have seen and read only.

 

[gnostic]

No, believe i'm not, i was just referring to people left Islam and they started thier propaganda against Islam and prophet Mohammed through articles or books.

I have not heard of that.

I have only those who had been harrassed and persecuted, because they left Islam, either joining another religion or becoming atheist/agnostic.

I supposed some of them felt bitter and resentment.

I haven't yet come across former Muslims. I have come across some former-Christian Muslims acting the ways you have said at another forum called islam.com.

You have said objection towards former Muslims acting this way, but do you think it acceptable behaviors for Muslims acting this way towards their former religions (eg. spreading propaganda against Christianity), TheTruth?

 

[Ibrahim Al-Amin]

Perhaps, Ibrahim Al-Amin. Perhaps, if Islam didn't overlay so so much of culture or law, then perhaps I could distinguish between what is culture and what is religion. The two seemed to blur. Islam is entrenched in the Middle Eastern cultures, that it is indeed difficult to separate the two.

what is the laws of each Muslim-populated country is doing to prevent people from taking the laws into their hands against apostaste?

Even if Allah is treated like king among the Muslims, shouldn't it be between Allah and the apostate?

Do people have the right to take another's life or be punished, if a person become atheist or convert to another religion? If a person have the right to choose Islam, then shouldn't that same person be allowed to leave Islam?

If a person can't leave Islam, then isn't it a double-standard, when you speak of "free choice" or "no compulsion" in regarding to religion.

It's amazing, the amount of what the West perceives to be "Islam," but is really specific cultural issues. I had no idea until I began researching Islam, how wrong was my Western perception.

I wish I could answer your question about what laws in each country protect the apostate. A truly "Islamic" state would use the Quran as the sole law, however. If a country were to make a law allowing the murder of apostates, then that law would be contrary to the Quran.

No one has the right to take the life of an apostate.

A person can leave Islam, so I don't know what you mean about a double standard. Essentially, "no compulsion in religion," means that you cannot force anyone to be Muslim. Nor can you prevent someone from leaving Islam. But you are correct, it is between God and the apostate.

To summarize, the Quran states that you can be whatever religion you want, but if you become a Muslim, then leave Islam, you're going to have to answer to God.

Thanks for being open-minded and respectful!
IA-A

 

[gnostic]

Sorry, ibrahim and thetruth but I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying and asking.

I didn't state the (Muslim-populated) countries have imposed laws against apostates. I am not saying the law-enforcements attacking apostates or court punishing them. (You both have misunderstood me here.)

I talking about people taking actions/laws into their own hands to punish people who have left the faith. And what are these governments doing to prevent awful actions from taking place?

There are injury and death occuring because of individual or group of individuals who attack apostates, so I wanted to know are their laws protecting people from leaving Islam.

And more importantly, I am not talking about the Qur'an. And I am not talking about laws or government persecuting apostates. What I am talking about actions of some Muslims attacking apostates with physical violence.

This is probably my fault that I didn't word it properly, in the opening post in the 1st place, so I am deeply sorry for misunderstanding you and me.

Do you understand what I am asking now?

 

[Ibrahim Al-Amin]

I talking about people taking actions/laws into their own hands to punish people who have left the faith. And what are these governments doing to prevent awful actions from taking place?

What I am talking about actions of some Muslims attacking apostates with physical violence.

I understand now, but unfortunately I cannot answer your questions as I am unfamiliar with such situations and I live in a country where such things don't happen (the US).

 

[gnostic]

Never mind, Ibrahim.

A frubbie...furballs...F somthing... for you, for being so patient with me. Thank you, for taking part in this discussion....er, sorry, debate.

(There is a very fine line between discussion and debate, and it is hard not to cross over side or the other.)

 

[Ibrahim Al-Amin]

Never mind, Ibrahim.

A frubbie...furballs...F somthing... for you, for being so patient with me. Thank you, for taking part in this discussion....er, sorry, debate.

(There is a very fine line between discussion and debate, and it is hard not to cross over side or the other.)

Thank you for being respectfully inquisitive. It's refreshing to see an open mind.