Another Islam - Science thread

[ranvirk]

Hi All,

First of all , apologies to create another thread that discuss scientific claims in religious texts. The reason I am creating this thread is because of constant emphasis about scientific claims from Muslims clerics using media platform etc., the thing that is more worrying is that now even a common muslim is repeting those claims in normal discussions, like I had the other day with my friend. I won't discuss that in details, but he was talking about how big bang was discussed in Quran. Of course when I read those passages, it was pretty clear that it's not.

So for something to be called a scientific miracle, below conditions needs to be true:

1) It was not known to anyone at the point of time when it was written.
2) It could possibly be only known through revelation
3) The meaning of text should be consistent from time of writing and clear ( Scientific claims are not open for interpretation) and people can change the meaning of verse to suit changing times.

With this regard, lets try to see how many scientific claims in Quran can only be know to God only.

Sorry, I myself have nothing again Islam but the sheer stupid ignorance baffles me at times.

More than happy to add other conditions based on feedback.

Thanks

 

[psychoslice]

People will believe in anything, as long as it straightens their belief, and that is all it boils down to.

 

[ImprobableBeing]

Hi All,

First of all , apologies to create another thread that discuss scientific claims in religious texts. The reason I am creating this thread is because of constant emphasis about scientific claims from Muslims clerics using media platform etc., the thing that is more worrying is that now even a common muslim is repeting those claims in normal discussions, like I had the other day with my friend. I won't discuss that in details, but he was talking about how big bang was discussed in Quran. Of course when I read those passages, it was pretty clear that it's not.

So for something to be called a scientific miracle, below conditions needs to be true:

1) It was not known to anyone at the point of time when it was written.
2) It could possibly be only known through revelation
3) The meaning of text should be consistent from time of writing and clear ( Scientific claims are not open for interpretation) and people can change the meaning of verse to suit changing times.

With this regard, lets try to see how many scientific claims in Quran can only be know to God only.

Sorry, I myself have nothing again Islam but the sheer stupid ignorance baffles me at times.

More than happy to add other conditions based on feedback.

Thanks

I've had this debate before, it ends in Muslims feeling insulted and leaving the thread.

 

[ruffen]

3) The meaning of text should be consistent from time of writing and clear ( Scientific claims are not open for interpretation) and people can change the meaning of verse to suit changing times.

I believe almost every verse in every Scripture of every religion fails this point.

 

[ranvirk]

Most if not all scientific miracles claimed in Quran were know to others way before Mohammad was born, so the claim that it can only be known through revelation is a stupid one I guess. If you then take revelation out of Quran then it will sound like any other book which Muslims don't want to hear.

The biggest issue is on evolution. By denying evolution, I deny my existence so for me the book itself contradicts beautiful picture of nature...

 

[ImprobableBeing]

Most if not all scientific miracles claimed in Quran were know to others way before Mohammad was born, so the claim that it can only be known through revelation is a stupid one I guess. If you then take revelation out of Quran then it will sound like any other book which Muslims don't want to hear.

The biggest issue is on evolution. By denying evolution, I deny my existence so for me the book itself contradicts beautiful picture of nature...

And some of them are not actually scientific and horribly incorrect which doesn't stop followers from quoting them as evidence either in hopes that some people are ignorant or because they themselves are ignorant.

 

[YmirGF]

And some of them are not actually scientific and horribly incorrect which doesn't stop followers from quoting them as evidence either in hopes that some people are ignorant or because they themselves are ignorant.

I think that is an important point to keep in mind when dealing with proponents of this kind of thinking. It really is bizarre how far they are willing to stretch both their texts and credulity in order to get a plausible sounding hypothesis. Said hypotheses are only plausible to those who are relatively ignorant of the various sciences.

One of my personal favorites is the amusing notion some Muslims have of evidence of the Big Bang in 2 short phrases found in the Qur'an. Things that make you go, "Oy vey!"

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Its not all muslims but I think many have developed a snap nature to be defensive of their religion. Many christians have not had to go through what many Muslims have and continue to go through. Christians, atheists, ignorants, ect all have jumped on the anti-Islamic badwagon. And also somehow this anti-Islamic ideology has been interwtined with racism in many countries.

So in some cases Muslims will view actions and words taken against Islam as persona racist attacks. Its usually very seldom but it does happen. At least a dozen times I have had people accuse me of either being racist or ignorant because I have talked out against some of the cultural practices of 3rd world Islamic nations.

 

[ranvirk]

I think that is an important point to keep in mind when dealing with proponents of this kind of thinking. It really is bizarre how far they are willing to stretch both their texts and credulity in order to get a plausible sounding hypothesis. Said hypotheses are only plausible to those who are relatively ignorant of the various sciences.

One of my personal favorites is the amusing notion some Muslims have of evidence of the Big Bang in 2 short phrases found in the Qur'an. Things that make you go, "Oy vey!"

I agree , Big Bang is a classic example of what lengths people can go to show so called science in islam...

Heaven and earth join togeather describing Big Bang is insane..

 

[YmirGF]

Its not all muslims but I think many have developed a snap nature to be defensive of their religion. Many christians have not had to go through what many Muslims have and continue to go through. Christians, atheists, ignorants, ect all have jumped on the anti-Islamic badwagon.

Then again, there isn't a lot to pat Islam on its pointy little head over either. Muhammad himself divided humanity into believers and unbelievers, with the later not fairing terribly well under the dominion of the former. Further to this, one would have to be intellectually bankrupt or barking mad to make comments that are pro-Islam due to Islam being a replacement theology that does not play well with others.

And also somehow this anti-Islamic ideology has been interwtined with racism in many countries.

One more time. Islam is NOT a race; therefore one cannot be racist against Islam. Think of how ludicrous it would be for Christians to scream, "Racist!" Pretty much the same thing, unless of course you are thinking of Muslims as being Middle Eastern. If so, that is certainly racist against Middle Eastern Muslims but blithely ignores the fact that the most populous Muslim nation on the planet is far from the "middle east".

So in some cases Muslims will view actions and words taken against Islam as persona racist attacks.

In which case you have encountered a Moron with a capital M.

Its usually very seldom but it does happen.

Likely because the vast majority of Muslims understand that Islam transcends racial barriers and is not a race unto itself therefore they would probably feel silly calling someone a racist.

At least a dozen times I have had people accuse me of either being racist or ignorant because I have talked out against some of the cultural practices of 3rd world Islamic nations.

The main problem is the average non-Muslim knows next to nothing about Islam. Therein lies the problem.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Then again, there isn't a lot to pat Islam on its pointy little head over either. Muhammad himself divided humanity into believers and unbelievers, with the later not fairing terribly well under the dominion of the former. Further to this, one would have to be intellectually bankrupt or barking mad to make comments that are pro-Islam due to Islam being a replacement theology that does not play well with others.

I am not a supporter of Islam.

One more time. Islam is NOT a race; therefore one cannot be racist against Islam. Think of how ludicrous it would be for Christians to scream, "Racist!" Pretty much the same thing, unless of course you are thinking of Muslims as being Middle Eastern. If so, that is certainly racist against Middle Eastern Muslims but blithely ignores the fact that the most populous Muslim nation on the planet is far from the "middle east".

I know. But it doesn't stop idiots from doing it. There are those that think MIddle eastern=Muslim=Terrorist. I'm not one but they exist.

In which case you have encountered a Moron with a capital M.
Likely because the vast majority of Muslims understand that Islam transcends racial barriers and is not a race unto itself therefore they would probably feel silly calling someone a racist.

Doubtful in some cases. They aren't defending the idea that Islam is a race but that somehow their race is tied to islam. And again it does happen. See America, England, France and Belgum

The main problem is the average non-Muslim knows next to nothing about Islam. Therein lies the problem.

True. I am no expert but I know more than the average non-muslim joe.

 

[ranvirk]

Its good to see no one actually try to justify so called scientific miracles in quran on based on three scenarios. People getting some senses back finally...

 

[lfa11]

narrow minded is problem as we all from a young age are like a computer we all have been programed to believe in one way only and its a pity cause we should look outside what we been programed to believe.
respecting ones beliefs is fine but when they kill cause a non beliver that is insane and not how it should be, to me it really suppose to be a guide and not something that you Must believe in or if not then death, upmost ignorance unfortunately on all parts of religion

 

[Lien]

I can discuss about Quranic miracles as long as I find the time for this .

Start it ? I'm waiting .

 

[Aquitaine]

I think it's safe to say we've all been here before, on RF at least.

What usually happens is one gets bombarded with links to webpages by Harun Yahya or Zakir Naik, then after attempting to twist definitions and scripture to bizarre and extreme ends, they usually give up and leave.

To be fair though, this isn't just an Islamic/Muslim thing, pretty much anybody can fall for this kind of stuff.

 

[Lien]

Okay I start it .

Expansion of the universe .

51:47 We constructed the universe with might, and We are expanding it.

 

[Gharib]

Its good to see no one actually try to justify so called scientific miracles in quran on based on three scenarios. People getting some senses back finally...

And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating.
(Al-Anbiya, Chapter #21, Verse #33)

When Muslims where aware that the sun and the moon each are in an orbit, your ancestors thought they had come from monkeys. They also thought that the earth was flat and that it was the sun who orbited the earth. Go figure.

Oh wait I forgot, to this day you still think you are a chimp who became a man. Never mind.

 

[McBell]

And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating.
(Al-Anbiya, Chapter #21, Verse #33)

When Muslims where aware that the sun and the moon each are in an orbit, your ancestors thought they had come from monkeys. They also thought that the earth was flat and that it was the sun who orbited the earth. Go figure.

Oh wait I forgot, to this day you still think you are a chimp who became a man. Never mind.

Is that all the better you can do?

One wonders what Allah thinks of using blatant lies to make cheap insults...?

 

[apophenia]

And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating.
(Al-Anbiya, Chapter #21, Verse #33)

When Muslims where aware that the sun and the moon each are in an orbit, your ancestors thought they had come from monkeys. They also thought that the earth was flat and that it was the sun who orbited the earth. Go figure.

Oh wait I forgot, to this day you still think you are a chimp who became a man. Never mind.

Question for you Gharib.

What was the word which is translated as orbit ?

Given the meaning of the word as we understand it, there must have been a body of scientific astronomical knowledge for that word to have existed with the modern meaning.

If there was no such body of knowledge at that time, then the word translated as 'orbit' was a word with a meaning different to 'orbit' in the astronomical sense.
On the other hand, if there was a body of astronomical knowledge then this is not a quranic miracle.

So which is it ? Is the word orbit being used to translate a word which was not actually an astronomical term ? Or was knowledge of orbits, and therefore the word itself, already in existence ? (In which case - no miracle).

In other words, the single word 'orbit' is your evidence. But it is impossible for that single word to have meant then what it means now, unless astronomy was already developed.

So what was the word, and what did it commonly mean in Mohammed's time ?

 

[apophenia]

I should add, Gharib, that I am not surprised to hear that Arabs knew something about astronomy.

There was a lot more knowledge in ancient times than modern people realise. For example, the Queen's Chamber in one of the pyramids is illuminated by the light of the star Sirius when it is at its zenith ...

This is 3000 years before Mohammed !