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Featured Another Interesting Curiosity of the Baha'i religion

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Buddha Dharma, Mar 17, 2018.

  1. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Deeje, this is only by accepting Gods Guidance and Laws. Man needs the Christ Spirit to guide His way.

    Man can not fix this world without God.

    Regards Tony
     
  2. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    The Message of Baha'u'llah 'Glory of God' is the New Jerusalem, it is the Kingdom of God on earth as in heaven.

    By 1844 the Gospel had reached all Nations and this prophecy was seen to have been fulfilled. Much written on that by early Christains.

    Yes understanding what is the Kingdom.is paramount to us accepting the Christ Spirit no matter where it dawns from.

    Regards Tony
     
  3. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    I am not doubting this may have been so, but is there historical confirmation for this besides Muslim references? I ask only because pagans were demonized in ways we now know are wrong and inaccurate by other groups. We have learned from archeology and recovered records for example: that the Canaanites were quite civilized and the mainstream in their society rejected barbarous practices like child sacrifice. They had a civilization with city-states like Hazor and kings. This civilization was neighbor to Ancient Egypt.

    Yes I acknowledge this. I am not sure how it goes to show that Muhammad and Buddha have similar personalities. I'm certainly not denying the Muslims were persecuted early on, but again- we have to consider to approach the matter critically that we don't have the other side of the story. What I mean is- we don't have the pagan Meccans saying where they were coming from, or if the Muslims were a perceived threat. Believe me, this isn't me trying to downplay any Muslim persecution that happened. I'm trying to be critical and thorough.

    Bahaullah had quite a poetic style to him. It can be really pretty. He says things though that don't explain everything.

    Like if we talk about India, which is the culture Krishna and Buddha came from- we have only Bahaullah's word for it that they were monotheistic for example, and would have been praying for 'God' to send messengers to deliver them from something.

    India wasn't anything like the Middle East that this more monotheistic framework for religion comes out of.

    That would mean though that all religions are mostly wrong when it comes down to it. I'm not sure how that's hard to grasp. If all religions have changing, relative truth that calls the whole enterprise of spirituality into question.

    Humans would be justified to embrace scientific materialism if any truth in religion was that unstable and relative. That's my view.

    Well that's very admirable, to be certain. Do the Baha'is believe there is a time they'll be permitted to fight to consolidate their place as the chief religion? I only ask because I've encountered in Baha'i sources something about 'entry by troops'.

    How does that establish the claims of the Baha'i religion in any way?

    I thought Baha'is accept globalism as ideal like most Buddhists do?

    I don't know about that. There are plenty of instances from both figures that permit non-defensive warfare. Moses told the Israelities to take the land and purge all the polytheists out. That certainly isn't defense. That's offensive invasion.

    I'll admit that in Islam's case this is harder to establish, but it still doesn't show that Muhammad and Jesus as an example reflect the same transcendent truth.

    I wonder rather a Muslim would agree with this sentiment about keeping the month of Ramadan, or Jews regarding the Shabbat. Especially since the Bible and Quran claim these are perpetual observances. They don't change.

    I agree that there is place for this kind of dialogue, but people that take their religions and what they teach seriously aren't going to agree with abandoning aspects of their beliefs as part of the process. Do Baha'is expect that?

    That is for you as a Baha'i to ponder. I don't accept anything in the Baha'i religion as authoritative, much less as prophetic. I mean no offense by that, I hope you understand...

    Do you think that as a Buddhist, or someone else like a Christian- would accept that the Baha'i religion contains prophecy?
     
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  4. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    The elephant analogy has a problem though if one accepts revelation of any kind. It only works in a purely philosophical context, where humans are left to their own devices to feel up the elephant with no additional guidance. Does that make sense?
     
  5. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    That is confirmed by Baha'u'llah, your thoughts are sound in this regard.

    What most Christains do not consider is how far the deception went. It is hard to consider a Love you hold, may have become the veil that prevents us seeing that Love again, when it is given in a New Name.

    Regards Tony
     
  6. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    Yes, I am aware that this is one interpretation a person could make. If I were to accept though that Krishna was in fact a warmonger- I'm not sure that would prove the Baha'i assertion about him just the same.
     
  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Off to work, I will reply to your post tonight. The end of the Baha'i Fast is sunset 20th March. So happy Naw Ruz (New Year)

    Entert by troops is by the sword of the tounge only.

    We learn war no more. If needed a Baha'i will participate in peace keeping forces, we will request a non combatant roll. If ordered to be a combatant, we will do our very best at being very good at it.

    Regards Tony
     
    #47 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Mar 19, 2018
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  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Just remember the Bab was killed and Baha'u'llah suffered many years because it was Muslims that were accepting the new message in droves. Without the Muslim Divines doing this, Persia would have accepted the Faith in a couple of years. That was the rate of acceptance.

    There are many 100,000 of Baha'i in Iran now also accepting this message and still being persecutes by those wanting power over human soul and mind.

    Regards Tony
     
    #48 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Mar 19, 2018
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  9. kiwimac

    kiwimac Brother Napalm of God's Love

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    So does Quakerism and without the sexism of the Baha'i faith.
     
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  10. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

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    It makes sense, it just doesn't resolve the issue. The elephant analogy may oversimplify the revelation of God to those who experience Him, but for the analogy to fail, God's revelation would have to be exhaustive--the elephant would have to have the ability to reveal itself in its entirety to each of the blind men. If it is not able to do so, then whatever revelations it IS able to make are still only limited (and potentially contradictory) approximations.

    I don't believe that God HAS the ability to reveal Himself in His entirety to a human, or, to put it another way, I don't believe that a human brain is capable of comprehending God in His entirety. We can barely pat our heads at the same time that we rub our stomachs, let alone be aware of what every particle in the universe is doing all at once.

    God can reveal Himself and guide man to experience Him in the way He wants man to experience Him, but He can never be fully comprehended, and any understandings of God will therefore be limited in scope and thereby potentially conflicting, if not downright contradictory.
     
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  11. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    Happy Naw Ruz :)
     
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  12. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Baha'u'llah has confirmed those thoughts;

    "God, the unknowable Essence, the Divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is, and hath ever been, veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. “No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtle, the All-Perceiving.” – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, pp. 46-47.

    It is the Messengers from God that show Gods Attributes to us:

    "..Methinks, but for the potency of that revelation, no being could ever exist. How resplendent the luminaries of knowledge that shine in an atom, and how vast the oceans of wisdom that surge within a drop! To a supreme degree is this true of man, who, among all created things, hath been invested with the robe of such gifts, and hath been singled out for the glory of such distinction. For in him are potentially revealed all the attributes and names of God to a degree that no other created being hath excelled or surpassed." – ibid, p. 177.

    The potential needs to be drawn from us and the only way is to recognise and accept Gods Messengers. In this day that is acceptance of them all and not just One Name of God.

    Regards Tony
     
  13. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    I see that every race and Nation has the same challenge to accept Baha'u'llah, each from their own diveristy of belief will have challenges they have to face. No one has it easier than another, as all have built some walls that needs to come down, before one can see with more clarity.

    It is not hard to see man gets it wrong and does many things they call upon God in Faith to do, when God has commanded otherwise. A strong Christain Nation was the first to use weapons of mass destrucrion and still wage war. Muslim nations persecute and fight in the name of God. Likewise Hindus, Jews, Buhddhist all fighting in one way or another around the world.

    There is no God in war, just man and his greed for power and money, hate and base animal instincts at play.

    All that prevents us become one people under one God, is but our own selves. It may be we do not want to give up our power, our money or way of life that a few rich enjoy, for a more balanced life that includes the good of all.

    All scriptures I read, aim at finding the good in ones own self, so they can then do good for all mankind.

    The Golden Rule no less.

    Regards Tony
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I am well aware of the extent to which the deception went...but are you?

    The apostle Paul said that if anyone came with a message other than what was preached by Jesus and his apostles, then he was to be "accursed". (Galatians 1:8, 11, 12)

    Read the illustration Jesus gave in Matthew 21:33-45.....

    "33 “Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. 35 And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. 37 Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”


    42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

    “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?


    43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”


    45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them."


    Jesus was the last prophet to be sent by God. There were no others to come. I cannot accept your prophet as legitimate. IMO, he is just another false prophet leading people to their destruction.

    You cannot believe the Bible along with other "scripture" not inspired of God. Both cannot be true if there are contradictions......and there are many. The Bible came first, so what came after is not scripture from anyone who was inspired by him. You accept this man on faith alone. I believe that you will be disappointed.....but you are free to choose, as we all are.
     
  15. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Deeje, lets explore your reply. I also agree we are all free to choose. If Baha'u'llah is as He says he is, your question is answered, yes I am aware of the deception and you would have to consider many things you are yet to contemplate.

    This is explained by Christ;

    John:7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. 12“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.

    Baha'u'llah is the Father who has taken what is of Christ and Shown it unto us.

    This is the message the story of the all the Prophets from God, the owner is Baha'u'llah.

    There is a wonderful story that I always think about when someone quotes this passage;

    "The story of the dedication stone is interesting in its own right. When the Temple had been first proposed in 1903, a Persian Bahá’í, had sent a letter to the American Bahá’ís saying that “the glory and honor of the first stone is equivalent to all the stones and implements which will later be used there.” This excited Nettie (Esther) Tobin, a loving, humble woman who earned a meager living as a seamstress. Praying that God would send her something she could offer as a gift, she went to a nearby construction site, told the foreman about the Temple, and asked if she could have an inexpensive building stone. The foreman liked her story and showed her a pile of broken limestone blocks that were no good for building and said she could take one. With the help of a neighbor, she wrapped her stone in a piece of carpet, tied on a clothesline and dragged it home. To get the stone to the Temple site, it was carried by hand on two different streetcars, dragged on the ground, and carried in a wheelbarrow. One of the streetcar conductors was not thrilled to have a rock on board, but finally allowed them to put it on the back platform. The last six blocks from the closest streetcar station were the most difficult. At first, Nettie, her brother Leo Leadroot, and Mirza Mazlum, an elderly Persian Bahá’í neighbor, tried to carry the stone, but after three blocks, they were exhausted. Corrine True and Cecelia Harrison had been waiting at the Temple site for them and finally went to look for them. Mirza Mazlum had three women put the stone on his and he managed to stagger another half block before coming to the end of his endurance. The stone was left there overnight. Nettie came back the next morning with a homemade cart. Trying to load the stone into the cart by herself, she managed to break the handle of the cart and injured her wrist. A helpful fellow repaired her cart and helped her load the stone into it. With two blocks to go, Nettie managed to persuade the newsboy to help her get the cart to the western corner of the Temple land and onto the site, where the cart promptly collapsed into pieces. There, the stone stayed. People in other parts of the world, including ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, sent stones for the Temple, but none ever arrived. So, on the day He broke the ground, only Nettie Tobin’s contribution of the “stone which the builders refused” would be available to serve as the marker dedicated by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá." (Earl Redman, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in Their Midst, p. 114-115)

    It has been given to the Baha'is.

    The Christians are yet to realise they now do to Baha'u'llah as the Pharisees did to Christ the first time.

    The passages already quoted above says this is not correct, Christ said He would come again.

    Hebrews 9:28"so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him."

    Matthew 16:27"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done."

    Baha'u'llah is the Glory of God, is the Father.

    Who is saying all other scripture is not inspired by God, the Muslim, the Zoroastrian, some Hindu, the Jews would have another opinion. Baha'u'llah has shown how they are the Word of God.

    I accept Baha'u'llah because I have done as the Bible asked me to do and I determined that Baha'u'llah was a True Prophet and testified of Christ and gave True Prophecy.

    If you are yet to do this, then that is your choice.

    Regards Tony
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That is tantamount to blasphemy right there! "Baha'u'llah is the Father"???!!! :facepalm:

    That is not what Jesus was saying at all.....when he said that the "advocate" (or helper; comforter; encourager) would come, the word rendered “comforter” is "pa·raʹkle·tos" which is used in the Bible to describe the roles of both the holy spirit (John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7) and Jesus (1John 2:1). It could literally be rendered “one called to someone’s side” to give help. He is NOT speaking about your prophet. Jesus plainly said "you will see me no longer". He is speaking about the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost....not something that was centuries away.

    Your interpretation is so incredibly twisted.

    When Jesus spoke of the holy spirit, (which is an impersonal force,) as a "helper" and referred to this helper as ‘teaching,’ ‘bearing witness,’ ‘giving evidence,’ ‘guiding,’ ‘speaking,’ ‘hearing,’ and ‘receiving’ (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7-15), he used personification, (referring to something impersonal or inanimate as if it were alive.) In the Scriptures, it is not unusual for something that is not actually a person to be personified. Some examples are wisdom, death, sin, and undeserved kindness. (Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:35; Romans 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12; 7:8-11) It is obvious that not one of these things is an actual person. God’s spirit is often mentioned together with other impersonal forces or things, further supporting the fact that it is not a person. (Matthew 3:11; Acts 6:3, 5; 13:52; 2 Corinthians 6:4-8; Ephesians 5:18)

    Some argue that the use of Greek masculine pronouns when referring to this “helper” shows that holy spirit is a person. (John 14:26) However, Greek grammar requires masculine pronouns when the activity of “the helper” is described, since the word for “helper” is in the masculine gender. (John 16:7, 8, 13, 14) On the other hand, when the neuter Greek word for “spirit” (pneuʹma) is used, neuter pronouns are used.

    There is no point in discussing the Bible with those who only see what they want to see in it. The Baha'i interpretation of scripture is very convoluted, twisted to fit the claims of one man who did not resemble the Christ in any way. How can you possibly think that Christ had to come in the flesh twice and die twice? That is utter nonsense! Most of the world has never heard of your prophet....I still cannot even pronounce his name. He might be your "Christ"....but he will never be mine. That is indeed my choice.
     
  17. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    You have proved without any doubt that you have not looked at the life of Baha'u'llah in any way at all, but offer negative comment upon him. Even the enemies of Baha'u'llah attested to his Noble life of the Spirit. That just thought it a shame such a great virtuous person made such a claim!

    "Only through the honor of entering His presence, many souls became confirmed believers; they had no need of other proofs. Even those people who rejected and hated Him bitterly, when they had met Him, would testify to the grandeur of Bahá’u’lláh, saying, “This is a magnificent man, but what a pity that he makes such a claim! Otherwise, all that he says is acceptable.”

    The injustice of the statement you made about Baha'u'llah, by itself, negates any credibility you have used as argument in reply.

    You are free to choose your path, but the Bible holds you to judge with Justice.

    I wish you always well on your chosen path. Rest asured a Baha'i will not interfere in your choice.

    Regards Tony
     
  18. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    You make it sound as though we're all going to, or must accept Bahaullah. I am sorry, but that won't happen. I hope that is not what you're saying.
     
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  19. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Why would you hope this would not happen? Basically one is accepting that all Faith comes from the virtues we live, that we are one human race that needs to live those virtues for the good of all. A world peace would result.

    Yes all will not accept Baha'u'llah. The time will come when the Majority of the World will have done so. I see the urgent need for all to do so.

    You do not have to accept this is the case.

    Regards Tony
     
  20. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    I mean the authoritative claims of Bahaullah.
     
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