Another Interesting Curiosity of the Baha'i religion

[kiwimac]

And still no discussion of the Islamic sexism extant in the Bahais. It is unacceptable.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

And still no discussion of the Islamic sexism extant in the Bahais. It is unacceptable.

I thought Baha'is believed in equality of the sexes? Or are you pointing this out as yet another aspect they'd have trouble reconciling, since they accept Islam as authoritative?

 

[Buddha Dharma]

I'm certain that this hasn't got much to do with the Baha'i Religion though. The ones I've met are quite a peaceful bunch.

They are peaceful, but there's aspects of their religion that come off as problematic. I don't only mean the one this thread raises either. They are handicapped when it comes to one particular aspect of social justice, which modern people don't agree with them on. They can't disagree about it because their Guardian said it, but it is an area where you'll see their tolerance often go out the window.

I of course mean the reality of LGBT people. They're no more advanced than Islam or Evangelical Christians on this particular.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And still no discussion of the Islamic sexism extant in the Bahais. It is unacceptable.

As all one could discuss is that Women share full Equality with Men. The preferred person is the one who offers themselves to serve all humanity, in the Love of God.

"And, in one of His talks, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá emphasises the uniqueness of the Bahá’í position on the equality of women and men. He states that Bahá’u’lláh establishes the equality of man and woman. This is peculiar to the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh, for all other religions have placed man above woman." (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 455)

"BAHA‘O‘LLAH declares the absolute equality of the sexes. The male and female in the mineral, vegetable and animal kingdoms share alike the material bestowals. Why should there be a difference in the human kingdom? Verily, they are equal before God, for so he created them. Why should woman be deprived of exercising the fullest opportunities offered by life? Whosoever serves humanity most is nearest God—for God is no respecter of gender. The male and female are like the two wings of a bird and when both wings are reinforced with the same impulse the bird of humanity will be enabled to soar heaven-ward to the summit of progress." (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Divine Philosophy, p. 82-83)

"Equality between men and women is conducive to the abolition of warfare for the reason that women will never be willing to sanction it. Mothers will not give their sons as sacrifices upon the battlefield after twenty years of anxiety and loving devotion in rearing them from infancy, no matter what cause they are called upon to defend. There is no doubt that when women obtain equality of rights, war will entirely cease among mankind."(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 175)

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I thought Baha'is believed in equality of the sexes? Or are you pointing this out as yet another aspect they'd have trouble reconciling, since they accept Islam as authoritative?

You are free to ask a Baha'i at any time. We will give you our understanding of the teaching from a Baha'i viewpoint.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

They are peaceful, but there's aspects of their religion that come off as problematic. I don't only mean the one this thread raises either. They are handicapped when it comes to one particular aspect of social justice, which modern people don't agree with them on. They can't disagree about it because their Guardian said it, but it is an area where you'll see their tolerance often go out the window.

I of course mean the reality of LGBT people. They're no more advanced than Islam or Evangelical Christians on this particular.

I will again answer this from a Baha'i View. This has not a thing to do with tolerance, as all people are free to do as they wish and a Baha'i will not interfere in their choices. So if a person chooses to become a member of a Faith, then they also choose the Laws of that Faith, as given by the Messenger. Man can not change these Laws. The position on this issue has not changed in Gods Laws. What also has not changed is a persons free will to accept those laws and try to implement them in their lives.

This is the guidance from the Universal House of Justice dated October 27, 2010.

"…With respect to your question concerning the position Baha’is are to take regarding homosexuality and civil rights, we have been asked to convey the following.

The purpose of the Faith of Baha’u’llah is the realization of the organic unity of the entire human race, and Baha’is are enjoined to eliminate from their lives all forms of prejudice and to manifest respect towards all. Therefore, to regard those with a homosexual orientation with prejudice or disdain would be against the spirit of the Faith. Furthermore, a Baha’i is exhorted to be “an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression”, and it would be entirely appropriate for a believer to come to the defense of those whose fundamental rights are being denied or violated.

At the same time, you are no doubt aware of the relevant teachings of the Faith that govern the personal conduct of Baha’is. The Baha’i Writings state that marriage is a union between a man and a woman and that sexual relations are restricted to a couple who are married to each other. Other passages from the Writings state that the practice of homosexuality is not permitted. The teachings of Baha’u’llah on personal morality are binding on Baha’is, who strive, as best they can, to live up to the high standards He has established.

In attempting to reconcile what may appear to be conflicting obligations, it is important to understand that the Baha’i community does not seek to impose its values on others, nor does it pass judgment on others on the basis of its own moral standards. It does not see itself as one among competing social groups and organizations, each vying to establish its particular social agenda. In working for social justice, Baha’is must inevitably distinguish between those dimensions of public issues that are in keeping with the Baha’i Teachings, which they can actively support, and those that are not, which they would neither promote nor necessarily oppose. In connection with issues of concern to homosexuals, the former would be freedom from discrimination and the latter the opportunity for civil marriage. Such distinctions are unavoidable when addressing any social issue. For example, Baha’is actively work for the establishment of world peace but, in the process, do not engage in partisan political activities directed against particular governments.'

Regards Tony

 

[Sundance]

They are peaceful, but there's aspects of their religion that come off as problematic. I don't only mean the one this thread raises either. They are handicapped when it comes to one particular aspect of social justice, which modern people don't agree with them on. They can't disagree about it because their Guardian said it, but it is an area where you'll see their tolerance often go out the window.

I of course mean the reality of LGBT people. They're no more advanced than Islam or Evangelical Christians on this particular.

@BuddhaDharma, while I'm sure you're aware of the Law in the Bahá’í Faith regarding marriage and the Guidance given by the Universal House of Justice regarding homosexuality (as explained by Tony above) and individuals who are LGBT, I think that we Bahá’ís can be thoughtfully kind and rather open-hearted people. I myself am very genuinely tolerant towards LGBT individuals.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@BuddhaDharma, while I'm sure you're aware of the Law in the Bahá’í Faith regarding marriage and the Guidance given by the Universal House of Justice regarding homosexuality (as explained by Tony above) and individuals who are LGBT, I think that we Bahá’ís can be thoughtfully kind and rather open-hearted people. I myself am very genuinely tolerant towards LGBT individuals.

I have a sibling that identifies as part of the LGBT community. It is not an issue for me. They have their choices to make and I can only support them, as any parent and member of humanity should and I hope would do.

Regards Tony

 

[Buddha Dharma]

You are free to ask a Baha'i at any time. We will give you our understanding of the teaching from a Baha'i viewpoint.

Regards Tony

Okay, please do so, if you will. About the equality of the sexes. I will get to your other post presently.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

At the same time, you are no doubt aware of the relevant teachings of the Faith that govern the personal conduct of Baha’is. The Baha’i Writings state that marriage is a union between a man and a woman and that sexual relations are restricted to a couple who are married to each other.

I am aware the religion teaches that, on the statements of the Guardian, not the founder himself. I was planning to get to that again later, so let's proceed.

Other passages from the Writings state that the practice of homosexuality is not permitted.

This is what I mean. It's unreasonable. People that are oriented toward the same sex have needs like anyone for fulfillment, by having a mate of the same gender. You're saying in the Baha'i religion this is not allowed. You're telling an LGBT person they have to choose Baha'i or who they are if the faith attracts them. This is wrong.

The teachings of Baha’u’llah on personal morality are binding on Baha’is, who strive, as best they can, to live up to the high standards He has established.

The teachings of 'Shoghi Effendi' you mean. On this particular.

In attempting to reconcile what may appear to be conflicting obligations, it is important to understand that the Baha’i community does not seek to impose its values on others, nor does it pass judgment on others on the basis of its own moral standards.

At the present time. What about it's vision of a future world order? Will they be imposing Baha'i values on others then?

Baha’is actively work for the establishment of world peace but, in the process, do not engage in partisan political activities directed against particular governments.

See above.

I myself am very genuinely tolerant towards LGBT individuals.

With all due respect, you may feel the Baha'i position is tolerance for the LGBT community, but I explained in my replies to Tony how it actually isn't. Being LGBT is a package deal like being heterosexual.

LGBT persons still have the same needs for fulfillment in a partner that they actually feel attraction for and can love. The Baha'i faith requires a homosexual to choose between happiness and fulfillment, or their religion.

That is not loving or understanding. It's cruel. Because when an LGBT person will want a mate and be unhappy, the Baha'i religion makes them fight themselves.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I am aware the religion teaches that, on the statements of the Guardian, not the founder himself. I was planning to get to that again later, so let's proceed.

The teachings of 'Shoghi Effendi' you mean. On this particular.

Under the Conversant of Baha'u'llah, the Writings and Explanations of Both Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi are also Scripture. The Universal House of Justice will use these in their explanations, as they can not be altered.

"For Bahá’u’lláh explicitly reveals in His Book of Laws that the very purpose of marriage is the procreation of children who, when grown up, will be able to know God and to recognize and observe His Commandments and Laws as revealed through His Messengers. Marriage is thus, according to the Bahá’í Teachings, primarily a social and moral act. It has purpose which transcends the immediate personal needs and interests of the parties. (Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 345)

"It should, moreover, be borne in mind that although to be married is highly desirable, and Bahá’u’lláh has strongly recommended it, it is not the central purpose of life. If a person has to wait a considerable period before finding a spouse, or if ultimately, he or she must remain single, it does not mean that he or she is thereby unable to fulfill his or her life’s purpose.
(Universal House of Justice, Messages from the Universal House of Justice, p. 110-111)

This is what I mean. It's unreasonable. People that are oriented toward the same sex have needs like anyone for fulfillment, by having a mate of the same gender. You're saying in the Baha'i religion this is not allowed. You're telling an LGBT person they have to choose Baha'i or who they are if the faith attracts them. This is wrong.

The law says they can not show that attraction in a sexual relationship. Fulfillment can not be found in sex. Its purpose is to create a new human being. The bond is to be spiritual not sexual. Thus all can find a Spiritual Partner of the opposite sex if they wish to Marry in life and have children.

"Marriage, among the mass of the people, is a physical bond, and this union can only be temporary, since it is foredoomed to a physical separation at the close. Among the people of Bahá, however, marriage must be a union of the body and of the spirit as well, for here both husband and wife are aglow with the same wine, both are enamoured of the same matchless Face, both live and move through the same spirit, both are illumined by the same glory. This connection between them is a spiritual one, hence it is a bond that will abide forever. Likewise do they enjoy strong and lasting ties in the physical world as well, for if the marriage is based both on the spirit and the body, that union is a true one, hence it will endure. If, however, the bond is physical and nothing more, it is sure to be only temporary, and must inexorably end in separation." (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 117)

"Know thou that the command of marriage is eternal. It will never be changed nor altered. This is divine creation and there is not the slightest possibility that change or alteration affect this divine creation." (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá v2, p. 474).

At the present time. What about it's vision of a future world order? Will they be imposing Baha'i values on others then?

If and when people become Baha'is in the future, they will want to implement these laws in their lives, no one imposes the Laws on any person. They will not be influenced by popular thought, of what this subject in this age has become.

This subject has manifold writings and thoughts to offer.

Regards Tony

 

[Buddha Dharma]

"For Bahá’u’lláh explicitly reveals in His Book of Laws that the very purpose of marriage is the procreation of children who, when grown up, will be able to know God and to recognize and observe His Commandments and Laws as revealed through His Messengers. Marriage is thus, according to the Bahá’í Teachings, primarily a social and moral act. It has purpose which transcends the immediate personal needs and interests of the parties. (Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 345)

Right, as Shoghi Effendi understands Bahaullah. It's right there at the end of your quote. If you want to take that as indication Bahaullah actually thought that, I can't stop you. For non-Baha'is this seems to be coming through a second-hand source.

The law says they can not show that attraction in a sexual relationship.

Which is unreasonable from a psychological standpoint, not merely opinion. Sexual relationships are a part of most people's overall well-being.

If and when people become Baha'is in the future, they will want to implement these laws in their lives, no one imposes the Laws on any person. They will not be influenced by popular thought, of what this subject in this age has become.

Right, in other words, as your last sentence shows: then Baha'is will dictate to everyone their laws. Or is that not what you meant, and I am misreading?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, please do so, if you will. About the equality of the sexes. I will get to your other post presently.

These are documents that was complied on quotes relevant to this topic;

Homosexuality, Bahá'í Writings on

Homosexuality

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Right, as Shoghi Effendi understands Bahaullah. It's right there at the end of your quote. If you want to take that as indication Bahaullah actually thought that, I can't stop you. For non-Baha'is this seems to be coming through a second-hand source.

Yes I can not tell you how to see that advice. For a Baha'i the Covenant of Baha'u'llah is clear. If it has come from Shoghi Effendi, it will stand for this age of God. Abdul'baha also says this Law of God is unchangeable.

Which is unreasonable from a psychological standpoint, not merely opinion. Sexual relationships are a part of most people's overall well-being.

This is but one psychological matter that we as humanity must and do face. As the world moves further away from Gods Laws, their mind also moves further away from our purpose in life.

Right, in other words, as your last sentence shows: then Baha'is will dictate to everyone their laws. Or is that not what you meant, and I am misreading?

Yes you have misread. The Baha'i Laws are only applicable to Baha'is. If in the future the governments of the world also return this law, then those that are not Baha'is will also be bound by them.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Right, as Shoghi Effendi understands Bahaullah. It's right there at the end of your quote. If you want to take that as indication Bahaullah actually thought that, I can't stop you. For non-Baha'is this seems to be coming through a second-hand source.

Which is unreasonable from a psychological standpoint, not merely opinion. Sexual relationships are a part of most people's overall well-being.

Right, in other words, as your last sentence shows: then Baha'is will dictate to everyone their laws. Or is that not what you meant, and I am misreading?

At Buddha Dharma ... Oh you're figuring it all out pretty well. Take your time, lol.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

At Buddha Dharma ... Oh you're figuring it all out pretty well. Take your time, lol.

I don't want to jump the gun on conclusions and assume someone said something they might not have. Maybe I'm too nice

 

[Buddha Dharma]

As the world moves further away from Gods Laws, their mind also moves further away from our purpose in life.

I was not aware that Baha'is thought the world had been following 'God's laws' prior to Bahaullah.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

If in the future the governments of the world also return this law, then those that are not Baha'is will also be bound by them.

Well that goes to show that Baha'is wouldn't be adverse to oppressing LGBT people doesn't it? The world governments doing it on Baha'i advice would be the same.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Well this is kinda taking the thread off track, so maybe I'll start another one about this issue.

I don't think that Baha'i adherents can show beyond the texts of their own worldview that the Buddha and Jesus taught the same, or had similar personalities to Moses and Muhammad. Do Baha'is think that can be shown, or is the only indication in their scriptures, which we aren't bound to accept?

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't want to jump the gun on conclusions and assume someone said something they might not have. Maybe I'm too nice

Unless you have incredible patience, my prediction (prophecy) will be that your niceness will slowly be eroded. Speaking from experience here. Never again. There is just no movement whatsoever. But all the best. Perhaps young man will go where none others have gone.