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Another Communism Failure

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Enoch07, Aug 13, 2019.

  1. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
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    I've often wondered what would have happened if, instead of the British giving Hong Kong back to China, they gave it to Taiwan instead? Taiwan was initially considered the true government of China. Nixon reversed that policy and recognized the Mainland Chinese government instead of Taiwan.

    It was a major policy shift, and many saw it as a betrayal. Although, it was the key maneuver which put enormous pressure on the USSR - so much so that it would eventually lead to the end of the Cold War. (Many credit Reagan with winning the Cold War, but I think the lion's share of credit should go to Nixon.)
     
  2. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    *looks suspiciously at the capitalist country to the south that's taken a more nationalistic bent these days*
     
  3. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    This would have basically been considered an act of war and led to China taking HK by force or at least destroying it economically via blockade and refusal to allow access to Chinese airspace, etc.

    Part of HK is actually on the mainland. The peninsular was actually the only part that was 'leased' from China but it was considered not to be viable to hold the island against Chinese will.

    No President 'won' the Cold War. The USSR managed to lose the Cold War through its internal failings (economy, anti-Russian nationalism, governmental and bureaucratic inefficiencies, attempted reform that weakened the forces holding everything together, etc).

    US policy had some effect, but was far from the decisive factor, it was only a matter of time.
     
    #23 Augustus, Aug 14, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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  4. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but as you say, the U.S. is capitalist, so that makes it all okay in some people's eyes. That's one thing about capitalists, since their primary goal is profit, and only profit. It's for this reason that they're more inclined to make deals and compromise their principles on other issues. They saw China as some kind of cash cow which is turning into an angry bull.

    So, now, it seems they want to take the bull by the horns, but that could turn out badly. One might hope that more rational and cooler heads might prevail, but who knows?
     
  5. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Kinda sorta: the US is "capitalist" the same way that China is "communist." The US sure does have a lot of government interventions in the market for a supposedly market-driven economy. It's just that they tend to be haphazard and usually for corporate benefit, not systematic and for public benefit.
     
  6. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Not really analogous. China genuinely is not communist in any meaningful definition of the term. Whereas the US is certainly capitalist by any meaningful definition of the term.

    Capitalism =/= Laissez-faire
     
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  7. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
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    Well, you're right, although it might have been interesting, considering the West's early dilemmas over how to deal with the situation. At first, the West was very hard-lined and staunchly against the Communist regime in China, but over time, they slowly softened and acquiesced to Chinese will. I don't know if it's a capitalist failure or a communist success, although I'm reluctant to characterize it as one or the other.

    All true, but I think if Russia and China had been able to see more eye-to-eye and not had the rift and the schism they had, they would have been in a more advantageous position. Nixon's idea was to get China on our side so we could put the Soviets at a disadvantage. By the 1970s, they were more afraid of the Chinese than they were of the U.S. or the West.

    But it could be that the Chinese might have been playing us as well. With the Cold War being dominated by the rhetoric and antics of the US and USSR, the Chinese could sit in the background quietly, slowly building up.
     
  8. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    You don't understand, I'm guessing.

    We Brits did not own the vast majority of Hong Kong. Never did.

    China leant the New Territories to us on condition that we would give up the whole lot when the 'lease' was up

    We didn't give it back, we just had to leave. If we had done anything stupid ..... Oh dear.

    China is now the fastest developing country and it can hardly be regarded as 'communist' in the old way.
     
  9. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
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    I recall in the movie Rollerball, there's a line where John Houseman's character said: "Now, everyone, has all the comforts. You know that. No poverty. No sickness. No needs and many luxuries - which you enjoy - just as if you were in the executive class. Corporate society takes care of everything. And all it asks of anyone, all its ever asked of anyone, ever, is not to interfere with management decisions."

    I think people would choose luxury over freedom most of the time. They may want both, but if they had to choose one or the other...
     
  10. tytlyf

    tytlyf The Mind's Eye

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    So far from the truth.
     
  11. Stevicus

    Stevicus Well-Known Member
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    Well, one could possibly say much the same thing about capitalism - or at least some people might. After all, capitalism had its old ways - ways which aren't practiced anymore (except in third world countries). Slavery, child labor, sweatshops, and other practices which have since been outlawed.

    So, if capitalists can become more enlightened and progressive, denouncing the old ways of the past, then I don't see why communists can't do the same.
     
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  12. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    Even as a liberal I could see that CNN dropped all pretenses of being unbiased and objective once Trump was elected.
    Note that I said "roughly" though; CNN hasn't gotten as bad as FOX news when it comes to blatant dishonesty and distortion.
     
    #32 Father Heathen, Aug 14, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  13. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Well-Known Member

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    There's got to be something in between "He wrote me beautiful letters and we fell in love" and just all-out war and nuclear annihilation, right?
    There are more than just the two extremes to consider.

    I can only imagine what the Republicans would be saying if Obama had said that a dictator had sent him love letters and that they fell in love. I can just see their heads exploding now and impeachment proceedings being carried out.
     
  14. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Perhaps it happened.

    But to the best of my knowledge, it didn't.
    Trump supporters and Trump don't seem to care about people in China or Russia or anywhere trying to instigate democracy.

    One might think that they care more Wal-Mart prices than the human situation. If one was really cynical about Trump's Christian USA.
    Tom
     
  15. tytlyf

    tytlyf The Mind's Eye

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    I disagree. CNN is left-center bias in their opinion shows. Fox is far-right in their opinion shows.
    Fox will intentionally deceive while no other news outlet does that on a daily basis.
    Do you watch Fox? I do, more than any network.
    I study it, psychologically.
    If I were you, I'd watch Fox primarily as your news source for a month. You can watch CNN as well, just the majority (by a long shot) has to be Fox.
    If you really listen to Fox, you'll catch on to the propaganda real quick. A lot stuff on Fox is intended to deceive and scare people. Tone of voice, select trigger words, etc. All day, every day it's demonize the democratic party.

    This is how they control conservatives and imprint into their brains that democrats are the enemy and the greatest current threat to the US.
     
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  16. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    I'm not an anarchist. :p
     
  17. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Funny - my problem with what's going on in Hong Kong is the brutal suppression of protestors and the denial of basic rights. Their economic system is secondary.

    But maybe that's just me.
     
  18. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    They are being suppressed by a communist govt. It's what communist govts do, which is one of the reasons communism is such a failure as a whole.
     
  19. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    That was a joke - right?

    • On June 9, 1898, the British under Queen Victoria brokered a 99-year lease agreement for the use of Hong Kong after China lost a series of wars fought over the British trade in tea and opium.
     
  20. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    That seems to be the thinking of young Chinese. They don't seem to care that they are being constantly monitored.
     
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