Animal suffering and God's nature

[InChrist]

Right. So, God killed all mankind via Flood.. and killed all the innocent animals as well as sort of acceptable collateral damage?

So, you're another person who pathologically cannot blame God for his evil action of slaughtering all the innocent animals?

Man did not, and would not have, killed all the animals. The Flood is not in any way, an action created by Man. If it is a consequence of his evil, it is still not something any Man decided, nor are we capable of causing something like that [certainly not in prehistory]. The form and shape of the punishment was completely in God's hands; so you cannot blame Man.

that was a direct action by God.

Now, why is it ok, with you, that God killed all those innocent creatures? This is really the question I've been asking again and again. Is it because you view them as not-really-alive or something, because they are not human? Does it have to do with their quality of, or lack of, souls? Or is it perhaps that anything God decides is ok, even if it goes against human
morals?

I mean, I am aware tha in some backwater places in America, people still throw buckets of unwanted puppies into rivers, but, in New York at least, civilized law would at least see such a person arrested and charged with animal cruelty. Here, we have your God, without batting a proverbial eye nor even speaking about it in scripture, slaughtering millions upon countless millions of animals, insects, birds, fish and who knows what else [unicorns and giants and dinosaurs perhaps] simply to punish Man.

Man might have deserved it [the fact that many were oldsters or infants is another argument entirely, fully under way], but, the animals could not possibly have deserved it.

Why don't you hold God accountable for his cruelty to the animals?

Because the animals are His. He created them in all their beauty and diversity and cares about His creation more than you or I ever will. I don't hold Him accountable or judge Him as you do on the presumption that finite human knowledge or morality is superior to His. I know and trust Him and realize that He knows all the facts of the situation which we don't and the flood occurred only as it did because in His infinite wisdom it was the way it had to be.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Because the animals are His..... I don't hold Him accountable or judge Him as you do on the presumption that finite human knowledge or morality is superior to His. I know and trust Him and realize that He knows all the facts of the situation which we don't and the flood occurred only as it did because in His infinite wisdom it was the way it had to be.

My moral superiority is based on a simple 'stink test' of the most basic human morals.

So, as I said, your view is that God can just kill whomever he wants whenever he wants. That's fine for you to believe if you want, but it isn't moral. 'Because the animals are his'. That means they are simply live playthings, and their suffering and death are of no consequence. I'm curious if you think this translates to humans and things they might own, like pets, or children.

All the facts of the situation are also known by us: he killed all the animals while making a point about evil men. It's not rocket science nor is it a mystery we cannot know. it would appear you wish it to be a mystery so you need not look at it in all its hideous horror.

I would of course be interested in your musing as to what hidden reasons he could have had for wiping them [the animals] all out. The fact that he chose to save a small handful as specimens does not excuse that those preserved were, what, a percent of a percent of all those who died. In what manner, in your opinion, could it be actually justified, instead of simply defaulting as you do, to the idea of a nebulous unknown but never defined, reason, which we should just trust in?

He created them in all their beauty and diversity and cares about His creation more than you or I ever will.

I believe I have demonstrated that this is certainly not the case.
I obviously care far more about it, since I am the one asking why the animals were killed. As I noted, God never even comments on it after the fact. I am the one protesting their slaughter. I am also the one asking: why don't you?
It's possible He cares about them more than you do; it's demonstrated that I care about them more than He does.

 

[Koldo]

Because the animals are His.

What makes the animals his?

 

[Road Warrior]

Poor me? Of all I have been through in my life I do not even think I have once asked for pity. I can learn about myself, learn about others, learn about our little world here. Who cares if it is a waste of time? Using this forum is a waste of time, going to the movies is a waste of time, technically everything you are doing and learning in your life is a waste of time, and it will be better when you just accept that you are going to die. No amount of hopeful or magical thinking will make you immortal.

I can see why an atheist would think life and learning are a waste of time. OTOH, maybe atheists might now have a better understanding on why believers think life is full of wonder and enjoy every learning experience as a step forward. Something that helps make us better people in the long run for both before and after "when we have shuffled off this mortal coil".

If you want believe your entire life is a waste of time, that everything you have done and will ever do is a waste of time and that by acting condescending to those who believe it isn't, then that, of course, is your choice. Cheers!

 

[beerisit]

I can see why an atheist would think life and learning are a waste of time. OTOH, maybe atheists might now have a better understanding on why believers think life is full of wonder and enjoy every learning experience as a step forward. Something that helps make us better people in the long run for both before and after "when we have shuffled off this mortal coil".

If you want believe your entire life is a waste of time, that everything you have done and will ever do is a waste of time and that by acting condescending to those who believe it isn't, then that, of course, is your choice. Cheers!

It's mind boggling how anyone can make this claim.I can see why an atheist would think life and learning are a waste of time Atheists believe that this is it, there ain't no more, enjoy it while you can, how could any person of at least average intelligence think that an atheist would find the only life he/she will ever have is a waste of time. Where as the theist wants to ensure that he/she always has a clean hanky and underpants, because when god runs over him/her with a bus they want to be ready for that glorious life afterwards. To a theist this miserable life is just a test, a trial run for the future. The life after death is the goal, this life has no meaning except as a ticket to paradise. The mantra of the theist should be, "please run over me with a bus", but of course they fear their entire lives that they may be sent to hell for throwing peanuts in the river. A life enjoying all of the wonders of this place is much more preferable than a life of perpetual fear. But hey, apparently you know better.:biglaugh:

 

[Road Warrior]

It's mind boggling how anyone can make this claim.I can see why an atheist would think life and learning are a waste of time Atheists believe that this is it, there ain't no more, enjoy it while you can, how could any person of at least average intelligence think that an atheist would find the only life he/she will ever have is a waste of time.

For precisely that reason; "Atheists believe that this is it, there ain't no more". While an atheist is free to live their relatively short life hedonistically, after they die, what does it matter? They're just worm food and nobody gives a damn, right? Sure, in the short term, everyone can have fun, but in the long term, what does it matter?

That is what DoP was talking about when he said "waste of time". If I'm wrong, then he can explain what he meant.

 

[Koldo]

If you want believe your entire life is a waste of time, that everything you have done and will ever do is a waste of time and that by acting condescending to those who believe it isn't, then that, of course, is your choice.

The funny part about this sentence is that it is condescending.

 

[beerisit]

For precisely that reason; "Atheists believe that this is it, there ain't no more". While an atheist is free to live their relatively short life hedonistically, after they die, what does it matter? They're just worm food and nobody gives a damn, right? Sure, in the short term, everyone can have fun, but in the long term, what does it matter?

That is what DoP was talking about when he said "waste of time". If I'm wrong, then he can explain what he meant.

And it raises it's ugly head yet once again. Theists believe that without a god to tell them what to do, they would be the worst humans to have ever walked the Earth. Hedonistic, oh dear, we really are fortunate to have religion. Without out it what would control the most base and vile instincts of those who believe?

 

[Road Warrior]

And it raises it's ugly head yet once again. Theists believe that without a god to tell them what to do, they would be the worst humans to have ever walked the Earth. Hedonistic, oh dear, we really are fortunate to have religion. Without out it what would control the most base and vile instincts of those who believe?

Thank you for providing the typical atheistic reaction with the standard formula of straw men, half-truths and flat out ignorance of facts. You do it very well too and many should expect there will be a promotion in your future!

For starters, not every believer thinks God needs to tell them anything much less "what to do". Second, not every believer thinks "we really are fortunate to have religion." I challenge you to quote where I have supported or affirmed either idea. If you can't, then it is clear you are merely fabricating fantasy once again.

Finally, as history has shown, people, regardless of religious beliefs (or a lack of them) who think only about themselves, who think helping others or being altruistic is a "waste of time", do, indeed, display "base and vile instincts".

 

[beerisit]

For precisely that reason; "Atheists believe that this is it, there ain't no more". While an atheist is free to live their relatively short life hedonistically, after they die, what does it matter? They're just worm food and nobody gives a damn, right? Sure, in the short term, everyone can have fun, but in the long term, what does it matter?

That is what DoP was talking about when he said "waste of time". If I'm wrong, then he can explain what he meant.

So now you wish to retract this post?
You may notice the claims you made concerning the character of atheists? But probably not. wa:do

 

[Road Warrior]

So now you wish to retract this post?
You may notice the claims you made concerning the character of atheists? But probably not. wa:do

What's to retract? That's exactly what was made clear to me by many of the atheists on this forum including yourself.

Are you saying that isn't what you believe? Do you believe in an afterlife, Beerisit? Woo? Or do you believe "when you're dead, you're dead"?

 

[beerisit]

What's to retract? That's exactly what was made clear to me by many of the atheists on this forum including yourself.

Are you saying that isn't what you believe? Do you believe in an afterlife, Beerisit? Woo? Or do you believe "when you're dead, you're dead"?

No the real question that I posed was do you believe that atheists live life as hedonists without a care for anybody or anything as you alluded to in your post. Do you also contend that only theists have a capacity for love, understanding and compassion? Don't run away now. Your integrity has never been more challenged.

 

[Road Warrior]

No the real question that I posed was do you believe that atheists live life as hedonists without a care for anybody or anything as you alluded to in your post

Like all human beings, I think the attitudes run a gamut in the shape of a bell curve, but as several here have made clear to me, you included, and to others on the forum, they think, in effect, it is "every man for himself". Anything else to them would be "a waste of time".

An old Greek saying is "A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."

I think such a society needs faith to have this idea. People who think only of themselves or who feel most human activities are a "waste of time", would rather spend their time smoking and drinking rather than planting trees.

Don't run away now. Your integrity has never been more challenged.

Further evidence of a typical atheist attitude.

 

[1137]

Road Warrior
There are so many straw men, so much condescending ignorance, and so much hypocrisy that I am not even going to bother catching up. You obviously are set in your aggressive and illogical generalizations.

 

[Road Warrior]

Road Warrior
There are so many straw men, so much condescending ignorance, and so much hypocrisy that I am not even going to bother catching up. You obviously are set in your aggressive and illogical generalizations.

Don't run away now. Your integrity has never been more challenged.

Things that make a person go hmmmmm. Should I tell a joke now?

 

[InChrist]

What makes the animals his?

The earth is the LORD’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it.
Psalm 24:1

 

[Koldo]

The earth is the LORD’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it.
Psalm 24:1

Because it is written in the bible?
For this passage to be necessarily true it must have been written/inspired by God. Do you agree?
In other words, it means that the animals are his because he says so, is this correct?

 

[InChrist]

Because it is written in the bible?
For this passage to be necessarily true it must have been written/inspired by God. Do you agree?
In other words, it means that the animals are his because he says so, is this correct?

More than simply because He says so, but because He created all life to begin with and all life continues to exist because He sustains it.

 

[Koldo]

More than simply because He says so, but because He created all life to begin with and all life continues to exist because He sustains it.

Therefore, there are 3 reasons that make all animals his:

1) He says so.
2) He created all life.
3) All life continues to exist because he sustains it.

Regarding (1), would you accept a claim from me where i told you that anything in particular, ( almost ) regardless of what it is, is mine? Would you consider me as its proper owner? If not, why not?

Regarding (2), do you consider God to be involved in the process of birth? If yes, in which manner?

Regarding (3), in which manner does he sustain it? Do you consider your ( hypothetical ) child your property?

 

[Penumbra]

Whenever someone links not believing in an afterlife with a short life of hedonism, then I just view that more or less as a revelation of how that particular person views their own life rather than anything about atheists or materialists and so forth.

It's similar to when a person asks why people bother being moral without belief in a god. If a person asks that, all I think is, "hmm, I learned something 'bout you today."