And He Shall Be Called a Nazarene

[74x12]

The problem is that no such prophecy exists. The author of Matthew simply made it up out of whole cloth. It is a big, big, big problem for the credibility of the gospels.

He's the great light the people of Nazareth see according to Isaiah.

Genesis 1:3 is about the same light. The light that shines and destroys the great darkness that covers all the people. The "shadow of death" that is the fact we'll all die overshadows us.

And Jesus is the resurrection and the Life.

 

[firedragon]

So your guess is that it was transmitted as an oral tradition?

If you dont get answers like "might be, could be, maybe" etc etc for this question, I will not cut my nails for one whole year.

 

[Fool]

But the claim was about 2 biblical era words, nothing modern.

and they're greek

so chances are that is the issue and not the fact they don't match one to one on the hebrew because they weren't hebrew to begin with


there are even instances in the tanak where it mentions the modern name vs the name used prior to the hebrew change. not unusual for invaders to change the name to reflect the language

 

[firedragon]

My understanding is that it says "What the prophets had said" because apparently it was not a written prophecy.

What are the prophecies in Matthew that were "written", not "spoken"?

 

[rosends]

and they're greek

No, Nazir is Hebrew. The claim was about a connection between the biblical "Nazir" and the later "Nazereth" which is actually Natzrat in post-biblical Hebrew (or, as was claimed, Greek). The claim was that these two words, in different languages, pronounced differently, because they have an overlapping meaning, must be the same.

 

[Rival]

This notion is a strictly Christian invention.

Jesus is never mentioned in the Tanakh, and bears no resemblance to the Jewish concept of a messiah.

It's true, though, that the authors of the gospels liked to play with such a notion. To take a couple of the baldest examples, the author of Matthew─

invents the unhistoric 'Taxation Census' story to get Jesus to be born in Bethlehem to “fulfill” Micah 5:2, and

invents the unhistoric 'Massacre of the Innocents' story to get Jesus into Egypt to “fulfill” Hosea 11.1.

Wall to wall retrofit, as you can see.

It's stuff like this that actively helped drive me away from Christianity. I do often genuinely wonder how folks can't see that these prophecies are being square-pegged-round-holed, since their use here really bothered me when I was a Christian as they seemed so force-fit.

 

[Fool]

No, Nazir is Hebrew. The claim was about a connection between the biblical "Nazir" and the later "Nazereth" which is actually Natzrat in post-biblical Hebrew (or, as was claimed, Greek). The claim was that these two words, in different languages, pronounced differently, because they have an overlapping meaning, must be the same.

nazarene in the greek means one separated. that is what a nazir was.

people tend to be people in their actions but not so much in their address, dress.

Hebrew ceased to be an everyday spoken language sometime between 200 and 400 CE, declining in the aftermath of the Bar Kokhba revolt.

Through their solicitude to avoid sin (whence also their name "Yire'e Ḥeṭ" = "fearers of sin": Sheḳ. vi. 6; Soṭah ix. 15) they had no occasion for bringing sin-offerings, wherefore, according to R. Judah, they made Nazarite vows to enable them to bring offerings of their own; according to R. Simeon, however, they refrained from bringing such offerings, as they were understood by them to be "an atoning sacrifice for the sins committed against the soul" (Num. vi. 11, Hebr.). This aversion to the Nazarite vow seems to have been the prevailing attitude, as it was shared by Simeon the Just (Sifre, Num. 22; Ned. 10a). (6)

so then, when the greek was written, the language had already ceased to exist as a spoken language among the natives. so again the greek could still be reflective of the times in relationship to the ancient. we know there were ultra orthodox essenes who were still following nazirite lifestyles. so you don't know that its isn't reflective of the greek term being used at that time for a group of essenes known to the general populace.


furthermore i've already shown that the naassene; which were essene were following nazirites rites and these essenes didn't all live in one big group. there were multiple groups


naassene the naas; which is related to the serpent. we see a similar word nachash reflecting the opposite of a soothsayer in the garden of eden. its a not really a leap of faith. it isn't unaccustomed for soothsayers to separate themselves from the general society in most primitive peoples. In fact, it is still done to this day in most primitive groups. they tend to abstain from the worldly


OPHITES:
By: Kaufmann Kohler, Samuel Krauss
Table of Contents

• The Naasseni.
• Diagram.

Collective name for several Gnostic sects which regarded the serpent (Greek, ὄφις; Hebrew, "naḥash"; hence called also Naasseni)


οφις is the ancient greek for serpent. lookie there a word in greek that has its equivalent to naas and associated with prophecy




we also know nazarites tended to be priests, or prophets. Samuel for one, this jesus character for another given he claimed to be a prophet,.


most people want to feel special based on outward appearances but unfortunately they usually aren't because of their actions. in real science we don't go on looks, we go on evolution in action. there is a linguistic tree showing no language is a branch unto itself

 

[Clara Tea]

Where in the Tanakh (OT) is this so called prophecy that he will be called a Nazarene?

According to Matthew 2:23, Jews had a prophecy that a Messiah would come from Nazareth. Apparently, that prophecy didn't survive to the present day.

Incidentally, I believe that the famous scientist, Galileo Galilei, was a Jew from the same region, whose family was likely forced to convert to Catholicism.

Old Testament messianic prophecies quoted in the New Testament - Wikipedia

 

[BilliardsBall]

Matthew 2:23
So the family went and lived in a town called Nazareth. This fulfilled what the prophets had said: “He will be called a Nazarene.”

Here is my challenge. Where in the Tanakh (OT) is this so called prophecy that he will be called a Nazarene? Now I really must insist that this prophecy be concerning the town of Nazareth, since Matthew makes it ALL about Nazareth. So please, no references about Nazarites -- that is something completely different. If you can't come up with a direct quote of "He shall be called a Nazarene," I will settle for any prophecy that the Messiah will come from the city of Nazareth.

The problem is that no such prophecy exists. The author of Matthew simply made it up out of whole cloth. It is a big, big, big problem for the credibility of the gospels.

There are two issues here:

1) He will be called a "nat-seret" (righteous branch from a dead tree, the stump of the kingly line of David, from the dead [cross] life and resurrection from the Son of David). He lived in the town of "natz-eret". Natseret and natzeret - common type of play on Hebrew (see Gematria, Zohar, etc., etc.)

2) My unsaved Jewish friends take HUNDREDS of Messianic prophecies that are either obviously about Jesus (will die with sinners then be buried with a rich man) or imply Jesus (natseret and natzeret) and make EVERY ONE of them non-Messianic, so they barely know who or what Messiah is!

 

[Rival]

My unsaved Jewish friends

Do you realise how pompous and annoying this sounds?

 

[rosends]

Hebrew ceased to be an everyday spoken language sometime between 200 and 400 CE, declining in the aftermath of the Bar Kokhba revolt.

But it never stopped being a language of study and prayer so it, at least in its biblical iteration, would still be known. But if it wasn't known then the Greek would have no connection at all with biblical Hebrew which would make n-z-r (biblical) and n-tz-r (PBH, from Greek) completely unrelated, undercutting the original claim.

 

[Harel13]

1) He will be called a "nat-seret"

I think you mean a "netzer" (נצר).

 

[Fool]

But it never stopped being a language of study and prayer so it, at least in its biblical iteration, would still be known. But if it wasn't known then the Greek would have no connection at all with biblical Hebrew which would make n-z-r (biblical) and n-tz-r (PBH, from Greek) completely unrelated, undercutting the original claim.

your current language isn't a one to one with the ancient language of study and prayer. in other words ancient hebrew and modern hebrew are not exactly the same. modern hebrew was piecemealed together from many other languages and ethnic groups.


numbers 6:2 is a nazarene; which literally is the greek for "to separate"

there is your one to one


again nothing fabulous just two languages sharing the same action using different words

 

[Harel13]

My unsaved Jewish friends

Just wondering, do you truly have any non-Christian Jewish friends?

 

[rosends]

your current language isn't a one to one with the ancient language of study and prayer.

But I'm not talking about modern Hebrew. I'm talking about the ancient, biblical Hebrew. That's the point.

numbers 6:2 is a nazarene; which literally is the greek for "to separate"

Numbers 6:2 is a נָזִ֔יר Nazir. It refers to someone who is bound by very particular rules for a set period of time. If it refers to Jesus, then he would be called (I guess) a nazirite, and the text would, as it does with Samuel (according to some) and Samson, mention this and the effect it has on his life and practices. Jesus certainly would never have drunk wine.

If the Greek word for "separate" happens to overlap in meaning with the biblical Hebrew nazir (which doesn't actually 'mean' separate, but has that connotation - see Klein, who has נָזִיר m.n. 1 one consecrated. 2 Nazirite. 3 prince. 4 unpruned vine) then what is that word and how is it pronounced and wouldn't that then completely remove any connection to "Nazareth"?

 

[Fool]

But I'm not talking about modern Hebrew. I'm talking about the ancient, biblical Hebrew. That's the point.



Numbers 6:2 is a נָזִ֔יר Nazir. It refers to someone who is bound by very particular rules for a set period of time. If it refers to Jesus, then he would be called (I guess) a nazirite, and the text would, as it does with Samuel (according to some) and Samson, mention this and the effect it has on his life and practices. Jesus certainly would never have drunk wine.

If the Greek word for "separate" happens to overlap in meaning with the biblical Hebrew nazir (which doesn't actually 'mean' separate, but has that connotation - see Klein, who has נָזִיר m.n. 1 one consecrated. 2 Nazirite. 3 prince. 4 unpruned vine) then what is that word and how is it pronounced and wouldn't that then completely remove any connection to "Nazareth"?

and i'm talking about the ancient greek in relationship to the ancient hebrew. and no he wouldn't be called a nazirite in greek.

to bad i already showed you the greek and the hebrew agree that a nazarene, one from Nazareth was one who was separated. nazareth would be named either something about the place before a group showed up there, or named after the people who were living there.


evidently in this case, nazareth was probably named after the nazarenes, the group of essenes who occupied the place and to whom mostly didn't follow the typical wordly jewish.

which is exactly where the word nazareth comes from.

acts 24:5.

the word nazareth is derived from the word nazarene

 

[oldbadger]

Matthew 2:23
So the family went and lived in a town called Nazareth. This fulfilled what the prophets had said: “He will be called a Nazarene.”

Here is my challenge. Where in the Tanakh (OT) is this so called prophecy that he will be called a Nazarene? Now I really must insist that this prophecy be concerning the town of Nazareth, since Matthew makes it ALL about Nazareth. So please, no references about Nazarites -- that is something completely different. If you can't come up with a direct quote of "He shall be called a Nazarene," I will settle for any prophecy that the Messiah will come from the city of Nazareth.

The problem is that no such prophecy exists. The author of Matthew simply made it up out of whole cloth. It is a big, big, big problem for the credibility of the gospels.

It's bulldust, a typical example of early Christians trying to reverse the Jesus story in to prophesy.

 

[Harel13]

evidently in this case, nazareth was probably named after the nazarenes, the group of essenes who occupied the place and to whom mostly didn't follow the typical wordly jewish.

which is exactly where the word nazareth comes from.

So the Hebrew should be נזרת rather than נצרת? If so, then there's zero evidence of such a place. A small village was discovered with an inscription bearing the word נצרת, but as far as I know, nothing called נזרת.

 

[rosends]

and i'm talking about the ancient greek in relationship to the ancient hebrew. and no he wouldn't be called a nazirite in greek.

what would he be called in Greek?

to bad i already showed you the greek and the hebrew agree that a nazarene, one from Nazareth

there was no such concept in biblical Hebrew

was one who was separated

as I showed, this is not part of the biblical Hebrew meaning of the term

evidently in this case, nazareth was probably named after the nazarenes, the group of essenes who occupied the place and to whom mostly didn't follow the typical wordly jewish.

so they chose to change the spelling so that the place and word reflect different roots? ingenious!

 

[Fool]

So the Hebrew should be נזרת rather than נצרת? If so, then there's zero evidence of such a place. A small village was discovered with an inscription bearing the word נצרת, but as far as I know, nothing called נזרת.

hebrew wasn't being spoken in 1st century palestine. greek and aramaic were the preferred and spoken languages.