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An open challenge to evolutionists.
- Thread starter Iymus
- Start date
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Who?
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Ah. The staff here have instructed me to put him on ignore.
I will follow the staff's recommendations.
dad
Undefeated
You failed to read. Just because you use the word document does not mean that they do not use the beliefs cited.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
lol, He would have to have a more competent or deft touch then, so as not to contaminate the samples? (just following your idea there)
This does point to a basic idea I notice scripture though. In scripture, instead of proof/evidence, God wants those that will trust Him without proof, which is called 'faith'. It seems very clear He intentionally allows no evidence to be found, as that would obviate the goal.
I put him on my very exclusive ignore list a long time, an honour that was well deserved.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
You are taking the analogy too far.
I meant that there is no evidence that God was involved.
Or maybe it points to the fact that there is no God and that's just an excuse thought up to justify why there's no evidence for God.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
Exactly.
Given various hypotheses, if a person happened to want to know which if any were true, I think ideally one would attempt to test them. That's just my own preference.
For me, personally, I was aiming to test other things, and only ended up testing the instructions on finding God much later, because of things I learned, which over time began to suggest it could be possible God exists. Trying to test if God exists wasn't my initial goal, or my 2nd or 3rd or 5th goal, but came much later, after testing many other things, the instructions for a good life here and now (for immediate benefit here and now) on living this life well.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
I'd be interested in knowing exactly how you were able to objectively test for God.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
As I meant to convey, and didn't write well or fully enough, I was only really testing what Jesus said to do. (Thus not actually testing if God exists precisely, but testing Jesus's instructions generally, and more of them over time) And that's how I ended up finding God. God is a being see, not an inert object, and you can only expect to be able to find Him if you meet his stated requirements for doing so.
For clarity, let me redundantly paraphrase: God will let you find Him if and only if you meet His stated requirements.
It's sort of like you have a house and someone rings the doorbell and you have a look at them through a camera, and decide whether or not to answer the door. Like that, sort of. You have agency and an ability to choose, and to screen people, of course. God isn't less than you in that way.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
So to make a long story short, you have no objective test for God.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I have seen too many theists that use a variant of a "Heads I win. Tails you lose." argument. The idea of an objective test is anathema for them. Especially since it soon becomes obvious that there is, as you pointed out, no objective test for their version of God.
Getting back to the topic of the thread evolution is extremely widely accepted by scientists because it is testable. If it is wrong there are ways to test it and find out that it is wrong. There are objective ways to test the concept, which means that there is objective evidence for it. Unfortunately since theists tend to be loathe to come up with an objective test for their versions of God their can be no objective evidence for their God.
Can you give some examples of what and how you tested regarding jesus.
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
By "objective test for God" I'm guessing you mean something like:
Is God available for your examination/observation in some way you can control or have on your demand?
The answer to that is "no." He has agency, and can refuse you, at His will. He can be unfindable by you, if you don't meet His requirements.
But if in contrast you mean a different question:
Is it possible to personally find out that God exists as objective fact?
Then at least some people will tell you the answer to that is "yes". (while others might say they are not sure, and some might say 'no')
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
In the accounts of his sayings, the 4 gospels, Jesus gives a number of instructions for living life, here and now.
That was very interesting to me, as that was exactly the kind of thing I searched for from a range of famous thinkers/teachers: actual instructions to put into action and find out how they work out.
For example: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Here the meaning (from context you learn) is not to just pick a few people and love them, and ignore the other neighbors, acting as if you can't notice them, or don't notice them, but instead to love each and all, as you encounter them. It's not a small thing.
So, my way before testing Jesus's instruction was that I had a few carefully chosen friends, whom I focused on, for my own natural enjoyment, and I kept my distance from everyone else.
I ignored my literal next door neighbors except for an arms length politeness. I tried to give them room, and not look at them. Normal American way.
So, to test the way that Jesus said, instead of my old way, I literally tried to love the neighbors on each side, one side and then the other.
The outcomes were truly surprising to me. It was as if I had brought exactly and only just 2 lottery tickets and both were winners, where one paid $500, and the other $50,000. I thought perhaps I was just extremely lucky. So I tested this one again and again, in new ways and new locations. It continued to work in ways that I just didn't think possible. My life was very sharply improved with unexpected windfalls and gains and enrichment.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
So again, you have no objective evidence for God. No objective reason for me to believe God exists.
After all, if the knowledge is personal, then it's not objective, is it?
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
Objective evidence is not available to any individual I think except that God allows them to have it. This is because He doesn't allow Himself to be found except by those that meet the requirements He has clearly stated in plain wording.
Let me give you an example of the requirements (there are more than these).
"Toward the scorners he is scornful,
but to the humble he gives favor."
Here you can learn ( if you choose) that God won't be available, won't allow Himself to be found, by those who are scornful.
2nd, He requires one be humble.
These are under personal choice though.... You get to choose whether or not you want to live as a scornful person. It's under your own volition. The same with humbleness. One can choose to do that. It's a profound choice though.