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An Open Challenge To Creationists

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I've always been of the opinion that because Christianity is such a fractured religion, " according to the World Christian Encyclopedia there are at least 33,000 Christian denominations in the United States."* which tells me there's a whole lot of disagreement among Christians, it's folly to dismiss any belief by a professing Christian as unChristian; That they don't qualify as a Christian. So obviously I don't go along with your assertion here, and why it makes no sense to single out atheists.

*source

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I'm certainly not singling out atheists, I hope you didn't get that idea. However, since I'm narrowing the subject now to evolution vs. creation, or evolution and creation, I am also going to say that the idea some who say they are Christian, yet claim that the Bible writers (and Jesus) didn't have enough scientific knowledge to propound the idea that God used evolution to "create things," is untenable. As far as I am concerned. No doubt many believe because Jesus and others did not discuss evolution as fact or possibility, and -- since I just discussed free will and limitations by design--not limited 'natural selection by design'--with another poster, I'll stay on that topic of what I consider to be a Christian. But now that the subject has come up about that, and you expressed your idea about that, what do you think defines a person as a Christian?
 
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Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
And many who call themselves Christian actually do not believe the Bible in any case or follow its guidelines. Yet they call themselves Christians. So, specifically, if many claim belief in evolution and the Bible at the same time, that does not make it true.
I disagree with your conclusion. You are making assertions without support or evidence. If many believe that a literal interpretation of the Bible is the only interpretation, that does not make it true.

Since evolution is the most well-supported theory in science and all the evidence reveals evolution, do you then think that God wants us to ignore the evidence and logical conclusions? Do you think God wants us to live lies? Please provide your argument and evidence for this for others.
 
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Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm certainly not singling out atheists, I hope you didn't get that idea. However, since I'm narrowing the subject now to evolution vs. creation, or evolution and creation, I am also going to say that the idea some who say they are Christian, yet claim that the Bible writers (and Jesus) didn't have enough scientific knowledge to propound the idea that God used evolution to "create things," is untenable. As far as I am concerned. No doubt many believe because Jesus and others did not discuss evolution as fact or possibility, and -- since I just discussed free will and limitations by design--not limited 'natural selection by design'--with another poster, I'll stay on that topic of what I consider to be a Christian. But now that the subject has come up about that, and you expressed your idea about that, what do you think defines a person as a Christian?
What you consider to be criteria for Christianity is your personal choice and has no bearing on whether a person is or is not Christian. You have no position of authority in deciding this.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I'm certainly not singling out atheists, I hope you didn't get that idea.
Sorry, my mistake, I mistook you for Leroy.

However, since I'm narrowing the subject now to evolution vs. creation, or evolution and creation, I am also going to say that the idea some who say they are Christian, yet claim that the Bible writers (and Jesus) didn't have enough scientific knowledge to propound the idea that God used evolution to "create things," is untenable. As far as I am concerned. No doubt many believe because Jesus and others did not discuss evolution as fact or possibility, and -- since I just discussed free will and limitations by design--not limited 'natural selection by design'--with another poster, I'll stay on that topic of what I consider to be a Christian. But now that the subject has come up about that, and you expressed your idea about that, what do you think defines a person as a Christian?
Other than accepting whatever definition a Christian chooses to use, I guess I'd say it would include accepting Jesus as one's savior.

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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Sorry, my mistake, I mistook you for Leroy.

Other than accepting whatever definition a Christian chooses to use, I guess I'd say it would include accepting Jesus as one's savior.

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OK, and right now we're kind of discussing evolution vs. creation, or mixing evolution with creation and thinking both are true. (Maybe. To a limited extent.)
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
OK, and right now we're kind of discussing evolution vs. creation, or mixing evolution with creation and thinking both are true. (Maybe. To a limited extent.)
Creation as described in the Bible is not supported by the evidence. There is nothing to demonstrate that living things were formed as they are. Whatever method God used, it was not as people describe it in the Bible.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
OK, and right now we're kind of discussing evolution vs. creation, or mixing evolution with creation and thinking both are true. (Maybe. To a limited extent.)
If there are 2.3 billion Christians on earth, then all those Christians that do not think exactly as you do are not really Christians. What percentage is that do you think? Can other Christians still cite that number as evidence for the power of Christianity or would they be knowingly lying.

According to Jehovah's Witnesses, there are 8.5 million of them in the world. They consider themselves the only true Christians. Do you think they all think exactly the same way?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Sorry, my mistake, I mistook you for Leroy.

Other than accepting whatever definition a Christian chooses to use, I guess I'd say it would include accepting Jesus as one's savior.

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OK, but let's say someone says he is a Hindu but wears a cross and bows down in front of a statue of Mary in a church. Plus goes to confession. It leaves questions in the minds of observers, I would say. Wouldn't you?
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
OK, but let's say someone says he is a Hindu but wears a cross and bows down in front of a statue of Mary in a church. Plus goes to confession. It leaves questions in the minds of observers, I would say. Wouldn't you?
Is accepting science the same thing as a Hindu observing Christian traditions?
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
OK, but let's say someone says he is a Hindu but wears a cross and bows down in front of a statue of Mary in a church. Plus goes to confession. It leaves questions in the minds of observers, I would say. Wouldn't you?
How are questions in the minds of others a test of whether a person is Hindu or not?
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
OK, but let's say someone says he is a Hindu but wears a cross and bows down in front of a statue of Mary in a church. Plus goes to confession. It leaves questions in the minds of observers, I would say. Wouldn't you?
Are your personal doubts about the veracity of the belief of another significant and relevant to determine that veracity? Are you placing yourself as the judge of others?
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
OK, but let's say someone says he is a Hindu but wears a cross and bows down in front of a statue of Mary in a church. Plus goes to confession. It leaves questions in the minds of observers, I would say. Wouldn't you?
Can you see electrons, neutrons and protons? How do you know they are there? What about the intermediate steps in some chemical reactions?

Are physical and chemical theories to be tossed out simply because you personally cannot see something?
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
OK, but let's say someone says he is a Hindu but wears a cross and bows down in front of a statue of Mary in a church. Plus goes to confession. It leaves questions in the minds of observers, I would say. Wouldn't you?
If a Christian can find no valid objection to scientific theories or findings and offer no valid alternative explanation to evidence, then are you suggesting that a Christian should reject science anyway?
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Logical fallacy, "argumentum ad nauseam". Repeating your original fallacy doesn't make it cease to be a fallacy.

You fallacies continues to be: "shifting the burden of proof" and "red herring".

Burden of proof:
When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim

Just because you don't want to have to abide by the logical concept of the burden of proof doesn't make it go away.

You were the one who made a claim, not me. You are required, as the one making a claim, to prove your claim or withdrawn you claim and admit you can't prove it.
It's not my responsibility to prove your claim isn't wrong. when you haven't first even attempted to give any facts or arguments to support the supposed truth of your claim.

You are trying to distract from the fact that you can't prove your claim by trying to demand I disprove your claim - which is committing two logical fallacies in one.




That's like saying someone is hiding behind the truth and logic. You don't seem to understand what logic is or how it works. If your argument is based on a logical fallacy then your argument is invalid.
Pointing that out is the opposite of hiding - it's confronting you directly with the wrong of your statements and telling you what you need to do to address that.

You have the responsibility as the one making the invalid argument to correct your errors and try to make a valid argument. Otherwise you concede the debate because you have no logically valid retort to respond with.



Your proposal of a question was itself the logical fallacy of a "Red Herring" and "Shifting the Burden of Proof". As I already pointed out. But since you didn't seem to understand what I already explained to you I will elaborate a bit more for you:

You ignored the valid points I made about the errors in your argument. You made several assertions about creation science in your first post that you have no proof for being true.
I pointed those claims out to you and asked you what proof you had to back up your claim that those assertions could be true - which is a right and logically valid way for someone to respond to any claim you make.

You do understand, don't you, that your claims don't have to be accepted as true by people just because you assert they are true, right? Believing people are forced to accept your assertions are true just because you assert they are would be the logical fallacy of argument by assertion.

Rather than address my valid logical objection to your post, you refused to back up your claims and then tried to distract from your need to do that (which is a red herring fallacy) by demanding I disprove your claim instead (The fallacy of shifting the burden of proof).

You don't get to demand someone disprove your claim unless you first attempt to provide some kind of facts or logical argumentation to justify why your assertion should be accepted as truth. Only when you make a valid logical argument to justify your claim does the other party have an obligation to deal with your argument if they want to dispute your claim. But you haven't made any argument to deal with - That's the problem. You've only made assertions. Unsupported assertions without arguments backing them up. And when challenged to provide an argument to justify your assertions, you balk and distract from it by fallaciously trying to shift the burden of proof.

But demanding someone disprove your claim is not a substitute for making a valid argument in the first place. That's the fallacy of argument by assertion. You're basically asserting something is true and saying that the proof is the fact you asserted it, and now it's the job of someone else to disprove your assertion. That's not how logic and debate work. And that's a big problem you seem to have the most trouble with understanding right now - That demanding a question be answered is not a substitute for having a valid argument in defense of your claims.

Just because you don't want to back up your claims doesn't absolve you of the logical requirement to do so. No one forced you to make those claims. So it's not like you have an excuse not to support them when challenged. If you didn't think you could support your claims, or didn't want to for whatever reason, then you shouldn't have made them in the first place. Or, at the very least, if you want to make claims you don't intend to support, you should at least be intellectually honest enough to come out and admit that you can't do it, or don't want to, when challenged to do so - and stop trying to pretend to continue the debate under the illogical false pretense that you think you don't have to support your claims.
Please be so kind as to present the claims you claim I claimed.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Can you present a case for creationism that does not rely on evolution being proven false?
...

Yes, I can do that.
It is apparently unknown, what objective reality really is, so evolution is neither true nor false as such. Rather evolution rests on methodological naturalism, which has nothing to do with truth. It rests on the principle that you treat the world as natural and knowable. It doesn't prove that the world is natural, it starts with that as in effect an assumption.
To prove true and false about the world is philosophy about the world. Science is not philosophy.

The many meanings of truth
dot_clear.gif

You might have noticed that in this website, we talk about
science providing us with "accurate" and "reliable" explanations. Even though science is often characterized as such, we do not describe it as a search for truth.
https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/truth

So whether creationism is true or not has nothing to do with science. That is theology and maybe philosophy.
As for science:
Science has limits: A few things that science does not do
Science doesn't draw conclusions about supernatural explanations

Regards
Mikkel
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
OK, but let's say someone says he is a Hindu but wears a cross and bows down in front of a statue of Mary in a church. Plus goes to confession. It leaves questions in the minds of observers, I would say. Wouldn't you?
No matter what he may do, if he says he's a Hindu I'm willing to accept that contention. Truthfully, I don't find the issue that significant.

.


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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
OK, but let's say someone says he is a Hindu but wears a cross and bows down in front of a statue of Mary in a church. Plus goes to confession. It leaves questions in the minds of observers, I would say. Wouldn't you?

It depends. Does he also worship Ganesh? Or Brahma? Does he observe a caste system?

Maybe he believes in a version of Hinduism that has merged with Christianity.

Maybe he is culturally Hindu. maybe he only goes to church and wears a cross to please his spouse.

One of the crucial things about religion is that nobody knows what is correct. We can suspect. We can go with what makes the most sense to us. We can interpret texts based on modern understandings as opposed to ancient ones. But ultimately, religious questions cannot be tested or justified, except subjectively.

Given that there have been many Christian traditions, many dating back to the early years of the movement, I am loathe to say anyone fails to be Christian simply based on one interpretation of a few verses. Or, for that matter Hindu or Moslem.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It depends. Does he also worship Ganesh? Or Brahma? Does he observe a caste system?

Maybe he believes in a version of Hinduism that has merged with Christianity.

Maybe he is culturally Hindu. maybe he only goes to church and wears a cross to please his spouse.

One of the crucial things about religion is that nobody knows what is correct. We can suspect. We can go with what makes the most sense to us. We can interpret texts based on modern understandings as opposed to ancient ones. But ultimately, religious questions cannot be tested or justified, except subjectively.

Given that there have been many Christian traditions, many dating back to the early years of the movement, I am loathe to say anyone fails to be Christian simply based on one interpretation of a few verses. Or, for that matter Hindu or Moslem.

all rightee...
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No matter what he may do, if he says he's a Hindu I'm willing to accept that contention. Truthfully, I don't find the issue that significant.

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That's just one example. Maybe he says he's Christian but believes in the Hindu gods. And by this time, I'm shrugging one shoulder and thinking, who cares? If you believe he could meet the qualifications of what the Bible sets forth for Christ's followers, but prays to Hindu gods and still says he's a Christian, all I can say at this point is: ok and oh well. And, of course, have a good evening.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
That's just one example. Maybe he says he's Christian but believes in the Hindu gods. And by this time, I'm shrugging one shoulder and thinking, who cares? If you believe he could meet the qualifications of what the Bible sets forth for Christ's followers, but prays to Hindu gods and still says he's a Christian, all I can say at this point is: ok and oh well. And, of course, have a good evening.
What exactly is your point? Are you saying that people are Christian if, and only if, they meet criteria you consider to be the defining criteria?
 
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