An Issue Of Valuing The Lives Of Others

[icehorse]

The median age in Palestine is 19.6 years old. Children make up almost half the population. The last election was 18 years ago. Hamas received 44.45 of the vote in that election. Most of the people alive today did not vote for Hamas.


I pointed this out to you just a few days ago.

So why does the world in general allow Hamas to continue to exist? And so what if lots of Palestinians are young. Why don't the adults vote Hamas out? And if your answer is because Hamas won't allow a vote, then I'll circle back to my first question.

 

[Revoltingest]

You forgot geopolitical and long term strategic expediency, which is not a choice so much, more of a risk assessment.

Still a choice.

 

[icehorse]

Your argument boils down to "someone said something".
And is appears that this matters to you more than the
context of the reality of who is doing far & away most
of the killing & oppressing.

But let's assume your premise that many Muslims believe
as you say. Are you arguing that treating Muslims as
less than human, oppressing & killing innocents, is justified
by what Hitchens says?

No mind reading please, ffs.

I'm saying nothing of the sort. But by all means, continue wasting everyone's time with your strawman arguments.

 

[InChrist]

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

I am not saying or implying two wrongs make a right. I’m saying Israel has a right and actually no option but to defend themselves from an aggressive, terrorist neighbor who wants to destroy them.

 

[Revoltingest]

Maybe the news and our leaders at this point are siding with Israel because it was the innocent people of Israel who were viciously attacked by Palestinian terrorists.

Israel is a terrorist state that attacks & kills more
Palestinians than Hamas does Israelis.
Why terrorist?
Group punishment, torture, & other tools designed
to strike fear in the populace as a means of control.

Israel does not do that.

Hamas & Israel have different tools at their disposal.
They use what they have. What matters isn't the tools.
It's the results. Israel is the deadlier & more oppressive.

But I don’t think you have too much to worry about. I’ve been seeing reports and videos everyday of pro-Palestine protests, some becoming violent, some blocking roads and traffic, with instances of harassing random drivers, and threatening Jewish students on college campuses.

I've no worries.
But I have values & concerns.

It’s interesting that the Palestinians in Gaza hold the elite position of victimhood. No matter that they have initiated decades of terror attacks against Israel, no matter how many Israeli civilians they have killed at restaurants, parks, theaters, on buses, or elsewhere - their victimhood defines them and that status is retained.

Israel is the king of exploiting victimhood.
Hitler! The Holocaust! We suffered!
See the video below.
They're always given as reasons to victimize Muslims.
Past injustices don't give permission to oppress & brutalize others.

There have been millions of genocide victims in Africa, millions of oppressed slaves in China....

Whataboutism, eh.
USA finances & defends Israel's evil.
This is worth addressing.
You can start your own thread about Africa & China.
But remember that we object to terrorism there....instead of supporting it.
That's the big difference.

Then came October 7 and the horrific brutalities against non-combatant, Israeli men, women, and children done in the name of Palestinians. The shock of such a barbaric atrocities threatened to dethrone the Palestinian cause itself. So what’s to be done to save the world’s most popular victims? I guess what has been done for centuries, which always works - change the subject; blame the Jews/Israel.

I blame Israel for perpetrating horrible crimes.
I give it responsibility for creating conditions
that result in Hamas's existence, & reacting to
oppression by also committing horrible crimes.

 

[Revoltingest]

No mind reading please, ffs.

I deal with your posts.
As for you mind, they do inspire questions,
eg, about your being a TERF.

I'm saying nothing of the sort. But by all means, continue wasting everyone's time with your strawman arguments.

The reductio ad absurdum application of
your rationale must sting sumthin fierce.

 

[Quetzal]

In the news, our leaders express concern for Israelis
killed & kidnapped, but are largely silent regarding
the far greater number of Palestinians killed by
Israel's massive bombing campaign, & embargo
on water, energy, & freedom to move...killing &
maiming thousands of non-combatants whose
only crime is being where Israel keeps them.

Democrats' divisions on Israel-Hamas war boil over in Michigan as Detroit-area Muslims feel betrayed

Many top Michigan Democrats, including Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, took part in a huge pro-Israel rally near Detroit after Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack on the country.

apnews.com

In USA there are sanctions imposed on people
who show support for Palestinians. Israel's
sway over Christians is creating a deadly new
McCarthyism.

After Writing an Anti-Israel Letter, Harvard Students Are Doxxed

A truck with a billboard displayed their names and photos, and critics put out do-not-hire lists. The students say it’s a campaign to shut them up.

www.nytimes.com

Battle against hate: Violence, bigotry toward Palestinian Americans spiking across US

Palestinian and Muslim Americans say discrimination against their communities has risen since the start of the Israel-Hamas war.

www.usatoday.com

The Mounting Onslaught of Censorship and Suppression

"A failure to stop this new McCarthyism would be to surrender to the forces of reaction that tragically are carrying the day."

inthesetimes.com

We should not tolerate the evil of state terrorism,
even when committed by a nominal ally. USA's
voters & leaders must reckon with their subversion
of their own values.

Disclaimer...
This post is about general trends in groups,
not about every single individual, who might
differ from their tribe.

It doesn't make sense. Israel needs to be held accountable just as Hamas does and I don't get why it's so hard to do.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am not saying or implying two wrongs make a right. I’m saying Israel has a right and actually no option but to defend themselves from an aggressive, terrorist neighbor who wants to destroy them.

That is the common straw mantra that ignores Israeli terrorism.
I see no one arguing that Israel shouldn't defend itself.
Of course it should.
The argument here in this thread is against Israel oppressing,
torturing, group punishing, de-housing, & generally treating
Palestinians as sub-human. This appears to come from Judaism
& Christianity, which we can observe by specious pro-vengeance
arguments from adherents.
The best defense for Israel is to treat Palestinians with justice,
not oppress them, kill them, torture them, bomb them, &
deprive hundreds of thousands of food, water, fuel, & medicine.
Make Hamas un-necessary.

 

[icehorse]

I deal with your posts.
As for you mind, they do inspire questions,
eg, about your being a TERF.

feel free to ask - do not assume.

As for me being a TERF - what's your definition?

The reductio ad absurdum application of
your rationale must sting sumthin fierce.

That's not at all arrogant... or unwarranted... (btw, I'm being sarcastic, I wouldn't want you to fall behind)

 

[Revoltingest]

It doesn't make sense. Israel needs to be held accountable just as Hamas does and I don't get why it's so hard to do.

Christianity, Judaism, nationalism, & tribalism.
The 4 horsemen of the pork lips.

 

[Revoltingest]

feel free to ask - do not assume.

I ask many questions of you.

As for me being a TERF - what's your definition?

TERF (acronym) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Basis for thinking you might be one of them....
1) Your posts show intolerance towards trans women
2) Calling posters "misogynists" for considering trans women to be women.
It's very very TERFie.

That's not at all arrogant... or unwarranted... (btw, I'm being sarcastic, I wouldn't want you to fall behind)

You used a standard to deny Palestinians can be non-combatants.
You don't use the same standard regarding Israelis.
It's a double standard that Israel uses to justify mass murder of Palestinians.
It's not self-defense. It's evil.

 

[Little Dragon]

Still a choice.

You say that as if it was true.
When there is only one choice, the best choice, is it a choice?

 

[icehorse]

I ask many questions of you.

most of your questions are based on strawman assumptions

1) Your posts show intolerance towards trans women

Not at all. I'm often intolerant of trans activists, and I do not think that allowing biological males into women's safe spaces is a good idea. There are many other solutions to these problems that I'd be fine with that would show no intolerance for any trans people.

2) Calling posters "misogynists" for considering trans women to be women.

That's not why I've called some posters misogynists, sigh.

Listen, if all you can handle is sound bite logic, let's just call it a day. Some topics are too complex to be reduced to sound bites, and this is one of them.

 

[Revoltingest]

You say that as if it was true.

You meant "if it were".
(Subjunctive case.)
People often see a choice that feels compelling
as their having no choice at all. That is to give
up thinking, & go with feeling.

USA chooses to support Israel, its injustices,
its brutality, & its terrorism. There are other
choices, eg, demand justice, support the
Palestinians.

 

[Revoltingest]

most of your questions are based on strawman assumptions

I don't think you know that that term means.

Not at all. I'm often intolerant of trans activists, and I do not think that allowing biological males into women's safe spaces is a good idea. There are many other solutions to these problems that I'd be fine with that would show no intolerance for any trans people.

That's not why I've called some posters misogynists, sigh.

Listen, if all you can handle is sound bite logic, let's just call it a day. Some topics are too complex to be reduced to sound bites, and this is one of them.

Your posts all sound just plain mean.
Further affiant sayeth naught.

 

[icehorse]

You used a standard to deny Palestinians can be non-combatants.
You don't use the same standard regarding Israelis.
It's a double standard that Israel uses to justify mass murder of Palestinians.
It's not self-defense. It's evil.

Do you think when country's wage war their responses should be proportional?

I do not, it strikes me that that would lead to more wars.

 

[King Phenomenon]

What if an earthquake took out the Temple Mount? Would the War be over?

 

[icehorse]

I don't think you know that that term means.

oh ffs.

Many of your questions to me are based on questioning claims I did not make. These are also sometimes known as "loaded questions". (But since I appear to be debating with the vocabulary police, I am NOT equating strawmans with loaded questions.)

Your posts all sound just plain mean.

Unless attacked personally, all of my posts attack ideas that I find divisive or damaging in some way.

If that's mean, so be it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Do you think when country's wage war their responses should be proportional?

No.
But responses should be reasonable.
War isn't a license to kill with abandon.
Hence the prohibition of war crimes.

 

[Revoltingest]

Many of your questions to me are based on questioning claims I did not make.

I try to avoid loaded questions.
You seem to try to avoid answers.
Perhaps because you infer meaning that's not there.