An interview with Unitarian Baha'i Bahamut19

[danieldemol]

Hello @bahamut19
Welcome to Religiousfourms

I hope when the opportunity becomes available you will entertain some questions for me (tomorrow is fine)

It is my pleasure to have you here.

Question 1.
Does the Unitarian Baha'i Faith consider itself to have a scriptural basis in the writings of Baha'u'llah?

More questions to follow and thank you again for joining us here at religiousforums

 

[RabbiO]

Have you been to the website? It might provide insight that could fine tune your inquiries.

 

[danieldemol]

Have you been to the website? It might provide insight that could fine tune your inquiries.

I thought it would be more fun to get a personal take on my questions, in part because some have suggested that Baha'i groups unaffiliated to the universal house of justice based in Haifa do not exist.

But if you could suggest a website and any relevant portions of it that may allow me to frame more accurate questions (assuming that's what you mean by "fine tune") I dont see any harm to polite discussion of it whilst we await our guest.

 

[RabbiO]

The Unitarian-Baha'is

unitarianbahai.angelfire.com

Unitarian Baha’is

unitarianbahais.org

There are actually two websites I ran across. I don't think that they are connected. I just thought they might prove useful to you.

 

[danieldemol]

The Unitarian-Baha'is

unitarianbahai.angelfire.com

Unitarian Baha’is

unitarianbahais.org

There are actually two websites I ran across. I don't think that they are connected. I just thought they might prove useful to you.

Thanks for sharing, they may come in handy.

 

[bahamut19]

Hello @bahamut19
Welcome to Religiousfourms

I hope when the opportunity becomes available you will entertain some questions for me (tomorrow is fine)

It is my pleasure to have you here.

Question 1.
Does the Unitarian Baha'i Faith consider itself to have a scriptural basis in the writings of Baha'u'llah?

More questions to follow and thank you again for joining us here at religiousforums

Danieldemol:

First, I do want to say I am not a member of the Unitarian Baha'i Faith, but I do understand their position and feel it is closer to what Baha'u'llah had intended when compared to the Administrative Order of the Baha'i International Community. In the Kitab-i-Ahd paragraph #9, God through Baha'u'llah says "The Will of God is that the branches, twigs, and affiliates should look in alignment with the Greatest Branch. Look at what We have revealed in Our Most Holy Book. When the sea of reunion rages and the book of the beginning is fulfilled in the end, turn towards Him Whom God Will, who has branched out from this Ancient Root. The intended meaning of this blessed verse has been the Greatest Branch. Thus We have made the matter apparent as a favor from Us, and We are the Gracious, the Generous. God has decreed the station of the Greater Branch after His station. He indeed is the wise commander. We have chosen the Greater after the Greatest, a matter from the knowledgeable and informed."

The Unitarian Baha'is believe once Abdul-Baha (The Greatest Branch) is no longer the one to be turned to, then Mirza Muhammad Ali (The Greater Branch) should be turned to. It is like a President and a Vice President, or a General and a Colonel. Both were intended to be in some leadership capacity. The Unitarian Baha'i perspective Abdul-Baha acted against the Kitab-i-Ahd by appointing Shoghi Effendi as the Guardian, a position and title Baha'u'llah had never described.

I believe the key foundational differences between the Unitarian Baha'is and the Administrative Order (Haifan) is the Administrative Order believes Abdul-Baha, and later Shoghi Effendi and now the UHJ are infallible, unable to make an error. Unitarians believe this practice is like joining partners to God, and is a clear and serious act of disbelief. In practice, the Administrative Order will excommunicate and shun people who do not believe in the infallibility of those 3 figures, and Unitarians do not have a practice of shunning anyone. All people are welcome. For this practice alone, I feel the Unitarian Baha'is are closer in spirit to the entire Revelation of Baha'u'llah as revealed by God.

 

[danieldemol]

Danieldemol:

First, I do want to say I am not a member of the Unitarian Baha'i Faith, but I do understand their position and feel it is closer to what Baha'u'llah had intended when compared to the Administrative Order of the Baha'i International Community. In the Kitab-i-Ahd paragraph #9, God through Baha'u'llah says "The Will of God is that the branches, twigs, and affiliates should look in alignment with the Greatest Branch. Look at what We have revealed in Our Most Holy Book. When the sea of reunion rages and the book of the beginning is fulfilled in the end, turn towards Him Whom God Will, who has branched out from this Ancient Root. The intended meaning of this blessed verse has been the Greatest Branch. Thus We have made the matter apparent as a favor from Us, and We are the Gracious, the Generous. God has decreed the station of the Greater Branch after His station. He indeed is the wise commander. We have chosen the Greater after the Greatest, a matter from the knowledgeable and informed."

The Unitarian Baha'is believe once Abdul-Baha (The Greatest Branch) is no longer the one to be turned to, then Mirza Muhammad Ali (The Greater Branch) should be turned to. It is like a President and a Vice President, or a General and a Colonel. Both were intended to be in some leadership capacity. The Unitarian Baha'i perspective Abdul-Baha acted against the Kitab-i-Ahd by appointing Shoghi Effendi as the Guardian, a position and title Baha'u'llah had never described.

I believe the key foundational differences between the Unitarian Baha'is and the Administrative Order (Haifan) is the Administrative Order believes Abdul-Baha, and later Shoghi Effendi and now the UHJ are infallible, unable to make an error. Unitarians believe this practice is like joining partners to God, and is a clear and serious act of disbelief. In practice, the Administrative Order will excommunicate and shun people who do not believe in the infallibility of those 3 figures, and Unitarians do not have a practice of shunning anyone. All people are welcome. For this practice alone, I feel the Unitarian Baha'is are closer in spirit to the entire Revelation of Baha'u'llah as revealed by God.

Thanks Bahamut,

Does Baha'u'llah describe his sons or other institutions to be infallible?

 

[bahamut19]

Thanks Bahamut,

Does Baha'u'llah describe his sons or other institutions to be infallible?

Not that I am aware of. In the Kitab-i-Aqdas, Baha'u'llah says God is the Greater Infallibility.

47 The one who manifests the command is not to be associated with the Greater Infallibility. Indeed, he is the one who exercises his will in the realm of creation. God has exclusively destined this status for Himself, and no share of this mighty, impregnable matter has been allotted to anyone else. This is the command of God, which has been concealed behind the veils of the unseen. We have unveiled it in this manifestation, and with it, we have torn the veil of those who have not recognized the ruling of the Book and have been among the heedless.

A significant portion of the Kitab-i-Iqan describes how a Manifestation of God reflects the attributes of God, but is not God.

In the Tablet to Khalil, Baha'u'llah describes His sons after being asked about Mirza Muhammad Ali revealing verses. The translation is from GPT4 and is rough in spots....

"5 As for what you asked about my son, know that if my sons follow God’s laws and do not exceed what has been specified in God’s book, the prevailing, the Ever-Existing, and they command themselves and the servants to do good, and they forbid evil, and they testify to what God has testified in His decisive verses, the conclusive, the definitive, and they believe in whoever God reveals on the day in which the times of the former and the latter are counted, and on it, everyone presents themselves to their Lord, and they will not disagree on God’s command and will not stray from His ordained, written law. Then know that they are leaves of the tree of monotheism and its fruits, and with them, the clouds rain and the clouds lift with grace if you truly believe. They are God’s household among you and His family in your midst, and His mercy upon the worlds if you know. From them, the breeze of God blows on you, and the winds of dignity and love pass over those close. They are God’s pen, His command, and His word among His creatures, and with them, He takes and gives if you understand. Through them, the earth has shone with the light of your Lord, and the signs of His grace have appeared to those who do not deny God’s signs. However, those who hurt them have hurt me, and those who hurt me have deviated from God’s path, the prevailing, the Ever-Existing. So, you will find the deviation of the deviators and their arrogance towards us and their transgression against ourselves without clear evidence or a preserved book.

Say, O people, they are God’s signs among you, beware of arguing with them, or killing them, or be among those who oppress and do not realize. They are God’s secret on earth and returned under the hands of the oppressors on this earth that fell behind the elevated mountains. All of that was returned to them at the time when they were young in the kingdom, and they had no sin but in the path of God, the Capable, the Powerful, the Mighty, the Beloved, and those from them who appear naturally and God runs from their tongues signs of His power, and he is among those God has chosen for His command. There is no god but He, to Him belongs creation and command, and we are all commanded by His command. We ask God to make them successful in obeying Him and to provide them with what pleases their hearts and the hearts of those who inherit Paradise from God, the Mighty, the Prevailing, the Ever-Existing."

His son's only real station is to be servants to God's laws. Everything else regarding them is dependent on this condition.

 

[danieldemol]

Not that I am aware of. In the Kitab-i-Aqdas, Baha'u'llah says God is the Greater Infallibility.

47 The one who manifests the command is not to be associated with the Greater Infallibility. Indeed, he is the one who exercises his will in the realm of creation. God has exclusively destined this status for Himself, and no share of this mighty, impregnable matter has been allotted to anyone else. This is the command of God, which has been concealed behind the veils of the unseen. We have unveiled it in this manifestation, and with it, we have torn the veil of those who have not recognized the ruling of the Book and have been among the heedless.

A significant portion of the Kitab-i-Iqan describes how a Manifestation of God reflects the attributes of God, but is not God.

In the Tablet to Khalil, Baha'u'llah describes His sons after being asked about Mirza Muhammad Ali revealing verses. The translation is from GPT4 and is rough in spots....

"5 As for what you asked about my son, know that if my sons follow God’s laws and do not exceed what has been specified in God’s book, the prevailing, the Ever-Existing, and they command themselves and the servants to do good, and they forbid evil, and they testify to what God has testified in His decisive verses, the conclusive, the definitive, and they believe in whoever God reveals on the day in which the times of the former and the latter are counted, and on it, everyone presents themselves to their Lord, and they will not disagree on God’s command and will not stray from His ordained, written law. Then know that they are leaves of the tree of monotheism and its fruits, and with them, the clouds rain and the clouds lift with grace if you truly believe. They are God’s household among you and His family in your midst, and His mercy upon the worlds if you know. From them, the breeze of God blows on you, and the winds of dignity and love pass over those close. They are God’s pen, His command, and His word among His creatures, and with them, He takes and gives if you understand. Through them, the earth has shone with the light of your Lord, and the signs of His grace have appeared to those who do not deny God’s signs. However, those who hurt them have hurt me, and those who hurt me have deviated from God’s path, the prevailing, the Ever-Existing. So, you will find the deviation of the deviators and their arrogance towards us and their transgression against ourselves without clear evidence or a preserved book.

Say, O people, they are God’s signs among you, beware of arguing with them, or killing them, or be among those who oppress and do not realize. They are God’s secret on earth and returned under the hands of the oppressors on this earth that fell behind the elevated mountains. All of that was returned to them at the time when they were young in the kingdom, and they had no sin but in the path of God, the Capable, the Powerful, the Mighty, the Beloved, and those from them who appear naturally and God runs from their tongues signs of His power, and he is among those God has chosen for His command. There is no god but He, to Him belongs creation and command, and we are all commanded by His command. We ask God to make them successful in obeying Him and to provide them with what pleases their hearts and the hearts of those who inherit Paradise from God, the Mighty, the Prevailing, the Ever-Existing."

His son's only real station is to be servants to God's laws. Everything else regarding them is dependent on this condition.

Thanks again Bahamut

Why does Baha'u'llah envision Houses of Justice in every city?

 

[bahamut19]

Thanks again Bahamut

Why does Baha'u'llah envision Houses of Justice in every city?

I am in no position to know the full intentions of God, but I have theories. The main theory I have is the religion of God, to include prior to Baha'u'llah, was never meant to be a centralized institution ruled by a few. This has always lead to authoritarianism and fundamentalism, limiting the full potentials of revelation. Each city and it's people has its own needs, its own culture, and it's own solutions within the framework Baha'u'llah set out in the Kitab-i-Aqdas. The Houses of Justice is to nurture justice, not exactly be the authority in all things.

 

[George-ananda]

Unitarian Baha’is is an interpretation of the Baha’i religion that emphasizes individual freedom of conscience rather than the authority of Baha’i leaders and institutions1. The Baha’i Faith is a religion teaching the essential worth of all religions, and the unity and equality of all people especially the family of Baha’u’llah1. Modern Unitarian Baha’is is an understanding that emphasizes the unity and transcendence of God, the humanity and limitations of all religious leaders including prophets, the importance of inclusion and tolerance among followers of Baha’u’llah and people of all faiths2.

I was a mainstream Baha'i in the 1980's and needed to look up what 'Unitarian Baha'i Faith' meant and found the above description. As a traditional member this would be considered a schism and covenant breaking heresy. The fact that I am no longer a mainstream member means I am not unsympathetic to the newer Faith.

My thought is why add the word Baha'i on to 'Unitarian'? What does Baha'i give us that new and different that makes it the central focus of this new religion? It just seems all liberal followers of all religious traditions would come to whatever positive aspects that are in Baha'i teachings. In fact schisms like this are loudly condemned in the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i Faith is really against 'individual' beliefs that are not in accordance with the mainstream. It does not consider itself a free-thinking democracy but a divinely inspired theocracy.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not that I am aware of. In the Kitab-i-Aqdas, Baha'u'llah says God is the Greater Infallibility.

Good morning. I am able to submit writings that give the Station of Abdul'baha, that he who turns towards Abdul'baha, turns towards God, and he who turns away from Abdul'baha has turned away from God's Manifestation. As they are available to everyone, there is only two positions that are possible, either you have not found and are yet to read those documents, or, there is questions I should ask as to the wisdom of further discussion.

Have you been a Bahai and either lost voting rights, or been declared a Covernant Breaker?

All the best, Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Unitarian-Baha'is

unitarianbahai.angelfire.com

Unitarian Baha’is

unitarianbahais.org

There are actually two websites I ran across. I don't think that they are connected. I just thought they might prove useful to you.

One is able to find many useful things on the internet and at the same time what seems useful, many not be at all. It really depends upon ones intent, as to how relevant it is.

When the Love of G_d is our motivation, separation and dissension should not be our guide.

Regards Tony

 

[bahamut19]

Unitarian Baha’is is an interpretation of the Baha’i religion that emphasizes individual freedom of conscience rather than the authority of Baha’i leaders and institutions1. The Baha’i Faith is a religion teaching the essential worth of all religions, and the unity and equality of all people especially the family of Baha’u’llah1. Modern Unitarian Baha’is is an understanding that emphasizes the unity and transcendence of God, the humanity and limitations of all religious leaders including prophets, the importance of inclusion and tolerance among followers of Baha’u’llah and people of all faiths2.

I was a mainstream Baha'i in the 1980's and needed to look up what 'Unitarian Baha'i Faith' meant and found the above description. As a traditional member this would be considered a schism and covenant breaking heresy. The fact that I am no longer a mainstream member means I am not unsympathetic to the newer Faith.

My thought is why add the word Baha'i on to 'Unitarian'? What does Baha'i give us that new and different that makes it the central focus of this new religion? It just seems all liberal followers of all religious traditions would come to whatever positive aspects that are in Baha'i teachings. In fact schisms like this are loudly condemned in the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i Faith is really against 'individual' beliefs that are not in accordance with the mainstream. It does not consider itself a free-thinking democracy but a divinely inspired theocracy.

George,

I suppose the reason the word Baha'i is added is to demonstrate the intention to follow the teachings of Baha'u'llah. I personally would get away from that word because by this point in time, using the word Baha'i is fairly bad branding and marketing. There aren't too many people who have a positive or favorable opinion of the word.

Of course schisms of all kind are condemned in the Baha'i Faith, but Unitarian Baha'is are not part of the Baha'i Faith. Schisms weren't allowed in any faith, but it happened. You follow the Advaita Vedanta path within Hinduism, which believes in monism. There are other paths within Hinduism which believe in duality or other non-monist theology. Does this mean you are creating a schism? Only if you condemn or outwardly try to cause conflict. Unitarian Baha'is will accept any person, even if they are members of the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i Faith as led by the UHJ will not allow Unitarian Baha'is be a part of their faith, and teach those people need to be shunned. Who is causing conflict and a schism? It's not Unitarian Baha'is. I personally have no ill will towards them. I just do not believe Abdul-Baha and leaders/institutions after him were infallible. That in itself shouldn't cause a schism except those leaders decreed any deviation to be heresy.

 

[bahamut19]

One is able to find many useful things on the internet and at the same time what seems useful, many not be at all. It really depends upon ones intent, as to how relevant it is.

When the Love of G_d is our motivation, separation and dissension should not be our guide.

Regards Tony

This is actually quite condescending and deserves no response. My spiritual journey is very relevant to me, as is yours. The Seven Valleys by Baha'u'llah demonstrates the traits required to pass through the stages of spirit. Having an aura of superiority is not one of them.

EDIT: Let me share one of my last experiences with the Baha'i Faith in my area. A friend and I talked the LSA into having a pizza and game night at the center. We invited non-Baha'is. There were about 20 people who attended. The Baha'is were unable to discuss anything but the Baha'i Faith, to of course include the Covenant and such. The non-Baha'is were able to discuss things in their life, actual personal things. By the end of the night, the Baha'is had repeatedly talked down about the ways of Christians and Muslims, despite members of both being in their audience. The non-Baha'is vowed never to come back again because of this aura of superiority. Unity cannot happen if one places themselves on a pedestal, as it simultaneously requires the lowering of others to a level beneath you.

 

[bahamut19]

Good morning. I am able to submit writings that give the Station of Abdul'baha, that he who turns towards Abdul'baha, turns towards God, and he who turns away from Abdul'baha has turned away from God's Manifestation. As they are available to everyone, there is only two positions that are possible, either you have not found and are yet to read those documents, or, there is questions I should ask as to the wisdom of further discussion.

Have you been a Bahai and either lost voting rights, or been declared a Covernant Breaker?

All the best, Regards Tony

What you described is a very common teaching amongst those who teach the Covenant that you believe in. You won't be creating any surprises. I suppose one of these writings would be the Tablet of the Branch? A few years into the ministry of Abdul-Baha, he started to teach every reference to the branch only describes him. This interpretation is one of those which I believe are in error. The Tablet of the Branch is describing the Manifestation of God, not Abdul-Baha.

A Compilation of Baha’u’llah’s Writings - Suriy-i-Ghusn (Tablet of the Branch)

One should note the Tablet of the Branch was revealed in 1868. The following year, Baha'u'llah revealed the Surah of the Temple describing Himself as the Temple. Here is a portion of it if you want to read it. A Compilation of Baha’u’llah’s Writings - Suriy-i-Haykal (Surah of the Temple)

As I don't believe Abdul-Baha to be an infallible interpreter, I do believe he would only approve translations which would elevate his station in the eyes of foreign followers. He put himself on too high of a pedestal in error.

 

[George-ananda]

George,

You follow the Advaita Vedanta path within Hinduism, which believes in monism. There are other paths within Hinduism which believe in duality or other non-monist theology. Does this mean you are creating a schism?

The difference I see between Hinduism and the Baha'i Faith is that the Baha'i Faith stresses an administrative structure and conformity and also stresses the avoidance of schisms. They hold there to be divinely inspired institutions including the Universal House of Justice (infallible on certain matters). The teachings of Abdul Baha and particularly Shogi Effendi could not make this much clearer. It is about the establishment of a singular religion and singular world order.

Hinduism generally teaches respect for other religions but holds that there are no truths in these other religions that cannot be derived from the Vedas (Hindu scripture).

 

[bahamut19]

The difference I see between Hinduism and the Baha'i Faith is that the Baha'i Faith stresses an administrative structure and conformity and also stresses the avoidance of schisms. They hold there to be divinely inspired institutions including the Universal House of Justice (infallible on certain matters). The teachings of Abdul Baha and particularly Shogi Effendi could not make this much clearer. It is about the establishment of a singular religion and singular world order.

Hinduism generally teaches respect for other religions but holds that there are no truths in these other religions that cannot be derived from the Vedas (Hindu scripture).

And you are no longer a member of the Bahai Faith, correct?

 

[George-ananda]

And you are no longer a member of the Bahai Faith, correct?

Correct

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is actually quite condescending and deserves no response. My spiritual journey is very relevant to me, as is yours. The Seven Valleys by Baha'u'llah demonstrates the traits required to pass through the stages of spirit. Having an aura of superiority is not one of them.

EDIT: Let me share one of my last experiences with the Baha'i Faith in my area. A friend and I talked the LSA into having a pizza and game night at the center. We invited non-Baha'is. There were about 20 people who attended. The Baha'is were unable to discuss anything but the Baha'i Faith, to of course include the Covenant and such. The non-Baha'is were able to discuss things in their life, actual personal things. By the end of the night, the Baha'is had repeatedly talked down about the ways of Christians and Muslims, despite members of both being in their audience. The non-Baha'is vowed never to come back again because of this aura of superiority. Unity cannot happen if one places themselves on a pedestal, as it simultaneously requires the lowering of others to a level beneath you.

I agree with your observations with that outing. Our focus should indeed be on the positives of life.

Regards Tony