An interesting article about hacking McDonalds ice cream machines and the right to repair

[Stevicus]

Improvement is a highly questionable value judgement.
One must ignore the millions who die from purges, famines,
& war. And then there's the oppression imposed upon the
survivors. This happens without exception in socialist countries.

I think it's a bit exaggerated, though. Besides, the same things can be said of capitalist countries, so this is hardly much of an argument.

Contrast this with capitalist countries, some of which offer
liberty & prosperity.

Only in very recent times has this been true, and only because of support from liberals and progressives. Without them, capitalism would have either been overthrown or still stuck in the 19th century.

You really believe that N Korea, Cuba, & China have more justice
than every capitalist country? Your sense of justice must differ
greatly from mine.

Apparently so. There's no form of justice more vital or important than economic justice.

Denmark & Norway are capitalist countries.
Denmark to American leftists: We’re not socialist
Economists in Denmark to America: Yeah, We're Not Socialist - El American

I thought you withdrew from this point after our discussion where you said capitalism was a "bundle of rights," not a strictly either/or question. It's not like being pregnant. You can have a little bit of capitalism and a little bit of socialism within the same system.

Hong Kong is still somewhat independent from China.
But your argument would suggest that they'll soon be
better off when under the PRC government.
Of course, that's complicated by China's still having
the old commie style powerful central government
which allows guided capitalism.

An interesting side note (if you read the OP article) is that one of the engineers who helped develop Kytch was from Shenzhen. He was practically laughing at the outdated engineering of the Taylor ice cream machines.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think it's a bit exaggerated, though. Besides, the same things can be said of capitalist countries, so this is hardly much of an argument.

One cannot say that if both have problems,
then both are the same.
Socialism has a 100% record of such woe.
Some capitalist countries rise above it.

Apparently so. There's no form of justice more vital or important than economic justice.

Socialist economic justice = All endure hardship except for the party elite.
Capitalist economic justice = Many win, but some lose.

I thought you withdrew from this point after our discussion where you said capitalism was a "bundle of rights," not a strictly either/or question. It's not like being pregnant. You can have a little bit of capitalism and a little bit of socialism within the same system.

They're still primarily capitalist countries.
Ameristan still is, this despite the fact that we've
been losing economic liberty relative to the rest
of the world the last few decades.
We're no longer even in the top 10, yet Denmark
is. They're arguably more capitalist than we are.
Index of Economic Freedom: Promoting Economic Opportunity and Prosperity by Country

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm not sure if this is how it works in the US, but the law here - at least for cars - is that if a manufacturer insists that only their technicians service the car to maintain the warranty, then all service has to be provided free of charge (or I guess built into the price of the car).

My take on the ice cream machine issue:

- if the end user has bought the equipment, then they own it. They should have every right to tinker with it as they please. What they do to the machine should only void the warranty if they modify, damage or misuse the machine.

- if the manufacturer wants to restrict what the end user wants to do with the machine, then they can rent or license it to the end user... but then the machine stays the property of the manufacturer, and when the machine reaches its end of life, it's the manufacturer's problem to deal with.

I like that solution. Unfortunately that is not the case here. At least not on many goods. People have the same problem with John Deere products:

Farmers Fight John Deere Over Who Gets to Fix an $800,000 Tractor

(I had to hit refresh and hit stop to read the article, ironic that I have to do a small hack on a website with a story about farmer's hacking their own equipment)

 

[Subduction Zone]

@9-10ths_Penguin the article that I linked has this informative bit about car repair:

"She’s also helped him set a clear goal: a law modeled on a landmark Massachusetts statute, passed in 2012, that required the auto industry to offer car owners and independent mechanics the same diagnostic and repair software they provide their own dealers. After it passed, automakers relented and made all their repair tools available nationwide."

I guess that in automotive repair the right to repair does exist. Farmers and McDonald's owners are too small of a group to get that sort of protection, at least not yet. Car ownership is extremely widespread here. Car owners are a very powerful voting bloc.

 

[Kooky]

It's the same song and dance every time this topic comes up...

 

[Kooky]

By the way, if we take capitalism to mean "a society in which the means of production are controlled by private individuals or privately-owned organizations", and socialism to mean "a society in which the means of production are collectively controlled by the working class" then it is perfectly possible to have societies of mixed economic systems, where some of the means of production are collectively controlled by producers, and some are controlled by capitalists.

It is important, however, to not confuse "the working class" with "the state". "The state" is not a stand-in for working people in and of itself - it can only become so if it protects and actively champions the interests of the working class as a matter of policy or principle (that is what "dictatorship of the proletariat" means in Marxist terms - a temporary measure in which the working class assumes collective control over matters of the state). So when a state exerts significant control over a country's economy, we can only honestly call that "socialism" insofar as the state is actively promoting (or at the very least, claiming to promote) the interests of the working class specifically, something that cannot be said about e.g. Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, or modern day Russia.

The PRC does not, by the way, run a socialist economy, and hasn't done so since the days of Mao.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's the same song and dance every time this topic comes up...

As I've often lamented, both the loony left & rabid right eschew
dictionary definitions. Words just an expression of feelings.

 

[Subduction Zone]

As I've often lamented, both the loony left & rabid right eschew
dictionary definitions. Words just an expression of feelings.

It is worse than that. Many either ignore the fact that the definitions of words can and do change, or think that their new definition is the only correct one. Earlier today I tried to help someone understand "accidental second degree murder" and here we see some that will insist only on the leftist definition of racism.

ETA: Words can and often do have multiple definitions.

 

[Kooky]

As I've often lamented, both the loony left & rabid right eschew
dictionary definitions. Words just an expression of feelings.

I've seen you object to dictionary definitions of capitalism before, especially this one:

an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

So what would you characterize yourself as, "loony left" or "rabid right"?

 

[Revoltingest]

I've seen you object to....

I sense this going nowhere productive.

 

[Kooky]

As I've often lamented, people typically use dictionary definitions when they agree with what they wanted to say anyway, or in some cases because they haven't read them thoroughly and don't understand the implications of the terminology used there.

 

[Stevicus]

Federal Government Looking Into McDonald’s Ice Cream Machines

 

[Stevicus]

Even the Feds Are Tired of McDonald's Broken Ice Cream Machines

Regulators are finally hopping on the right-to-repair movement, and it starts with McDonald's ice cream machines.

gizmodo.com

The McDonald’s broken ice cream machines have found themselves at the center of the right-to-repair movement. The reason McDonald’s ice cream machines are always down is because of copyright law. Only technicians licensed by the company that made the device are allowed to touch the machines, and they charge over $300 for a 15-minute servicing, according to the letter. The DOJ and the FTC identified commercial soft-serve machines as one of four device categories that would benefit from an easing of copyright laws.

Overzealous enforcement of copyright laws seems to be the culprit here. Instead of bending over backwards to protect this company, they should be called out for building lousy machines that keep breaking down all the time.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

I remember when you could get MC Sundaes back in the 80s/90s/early 2000s. I think it's ridiculous that other places including dedicated ice cream shops, fast food restararaunts, and salad bars don't have the same kinds of problems McDonald's do now.