An interesting article about hacking McDonalds ice cream machines and the right to repair

[Shadow Wolf]

A lot of electrical items end up in the trash heap because it's just not worth it to spend money on repair. Buying a new device is oftentimes not that much more expensive than repairing an older device.

If you do it yourself, no. A good refurbished phone will still run way cheaper than it would new. It does depend on what sort of damage, but for the most part, no.
The expensive part tends to be in tools designed for such delicate processes. Especially with today's stuff. 10 years ago it was very easy and a basic disassembly toolkit would work for most things. Now you have to dissemble more of it, and that requires melting glue to lift the screen.
But it's still generally cheaper (the cheapest route is to put your device in a quality case that includes a solid screen protector).

In most cases, the end user probably wouldn't know how to repair any of these things anyway. Still, you'd think that they would try to make it a little more user friendly, rather than just leave people in the lurch with broken machines.

Check out some of the guides on ifixit. It's really not that hard, especially if it's not designed to be difficult.
And most definitely things need to be more user friendly. As things are now, they are progressively becoming more anti-consumer.
But, it's not every where. Where we may find a term of usage that is longer than the play Hamlet (they aren't that uncommon), some nations have taken steps against such terms that are horribly stacked against the consumer and made needlessly confusing, and rendered unenforceable. So this can be reigned in.
But that is there, and this is here, and here the recent mega blow dealt to the FTC by the Supreme Court (9-0 decision) fits the larger trend of America becoming increasingly consumer hateful and shifting America further towards it being dog-eat-dog, every man for himself.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Seriously, this issue is so bad and out of hand that John Deere has sued farmers over the tractors purchased by the farmers having their software programming adjusted by the farmer who owns it. Deere is one of the companies who is very uncooperative when it comes to self repair, antagonizing farmers who attempt to repair their own stuff.

 

[Revoltingest]

"Tax increase" is just for the sake of political expediency, just to trick the masses into thinking the politicians are on their side. The overlords know that the politicians have to feed so much bunkum to the masses, but they also know that they'll put in so many riders and loopholes that they can find ways around any impending tax increases.

A very sophisticated conspiracy it would seem.
This points to the uselessness of voting, since Biden,
Trump, Obama, etc all do the bidding of this cabal.

The voters are all like & whatever....

 

[Stevicus]

A very sophisticated conspiracy it would seem.
This points to the uselessness of voting, since Biden,
Trump, Obama, etc all do the bidding of this cabal.

Recent allegations would suggest that the voters are influenced by social media, which would indicate that the voters do not make up their own minds in elections. While they were pointing fingers at the Russians, they were also pointing fingers at themselves, tacitly admitting that the media have been controlling elections all along. They were just upset because, this time, the Russians were muscling in on their action.

The voters are all like & whatever....

Aren't you the one who is always pointing out how the voters elect warmongers to office? Isn't that as much as saying that, either the voters are violent, contemptible, evil people - or they're being influenced by others?

 

[Revoltingest]

Aren't you the one who is always pointing out how the voters elect warmongers to office? Isn't that as much as saying that, either the voters are violent, contemptible, evil people - or they're being influenced by others?

The voters are violent, contemptable, evil,
thoughtless, emotional, gullible people.

And they're influenced by others.
But everyone is influenced by others.
The question...
Is the influence mere influence, or is it dictatorial?
The latter prevails in socialist countries, even in
those adopting capitalism, while retaining the
single party government, eg, China.

 

[Stevicus]

The voters are violent, contemptable, evil,
thoughtless, emotional, gullible people.

And they're influenced by others.
But everyone is influenced by others.
The question...
Is the influence mere influence, or is it dictatorial?
The latter prevails in socialist countries, even in
those adopting capitalism, while retaining the
single party government, eg, China.

The same basic tactics of influence and manipulation exist, regardless of whether it's a dictatorship or democracy. Dictatorships don't just happen because someone says so. It's all a matter of what people believe and how they come by those beliefs. Same for democracy.

 

[Revoltingest]

The same basic tactics of influence and manipulation exist, regardless of whether it's a dictatorship or democracy. Dictatorships don't just happen because someone says so. It's all a matter of what people believe and how they come by those beliefs. Same for democracy.

Are you equating China's influence over its populace with
the influence of some extra-governmental cabal in Ameristan?
They have re-education camps for millions. They disappear
those who speak against government. We have Facebook, NPR,
Youtube, etc, etc. I see a big difference in the level of control

 

[Stevicus]

Are you equating China's influence over its populace with
the influence of some extra-governmental cabal in Ameristan?
They have re-education camps for millions. They disappear
those who speak against government. We have Facebook, NPR,
Youtube, etc, etc. I see a big difference in the level of control

The only real difference is in what they want to control versus what they don't care about. We've had people disappear in America, too.

 

[Revoltingest]

The only real difference is in what they want to control versus what they don't care about. We've had people disappear in America, too.

You have a fascinating equivalence there.
We must agree to disagree.

 

[Stevicus]

You have a fascinating equivalence there.
We must agree to disagree.

I notice you didn't say "false equivalence."

 

[Revoltingest]

I notice you didn't say "false equivalence."

It's over-misused.
I am fascinated by socialist apologetics for oppressive regimes.
People sure do have different values & perspectives.

 

[Stevicus]

It's over-misused.
I am fascinated by socialist apologetics for oppressive regimes.
People sure do have different values & perspectives.

You're forgetting how many military juntas the capitalists supported, often justified by their irrational fears of socialism.

 

[Revoltingest]

You're forgetting how many military juntas the capitalists supported, often justified by their irrational fears of socialism.

Fears of socialism aren't so irrational.
Where it's been tried, it's caused famine, oppression, & woe.
Never has it been otherwise for socialism.
But don't read this as to justify attacks on those countries.
Our government has a history of bad foreign policy judgement.

 

[Stevicus]

Fears of socialism aren't so irrational.
Where it's been tried, it's caused famine, oppression, & woe.
Never has it been otherwise for socialism.

Wrongo pongo. Where it's been tried, socialism has always improved every country from what it was before.

But don't read this as to justify attacks on those countries.
Our government has a history of bad foreign policy judgement.

Our government has a history of bending over backwards to appease capitalists, right from the very beginning when it allowed slavery, sweatshops, child labor, and wanton military expansion across the continent for the sake of higher profits.

 

[Revoltingest]

Wrongo pongo. Where it's been tried, socialism has always improved every country from what it was before.

"Improvement" is a dubious claim.
Moreover, each has still been afflicted with oppression, famine, woe.

Our government has a history of bending over backwards to appease capitalists, right from the very beginning when it allowed slavery, sweatshops, child labor, and wanton military expansion across the continent for the sake of higher profits.

Slavery has existed under every economic system, including
socialism. So that's a poor basis to criticize captialism.
Sweatshops & child labor are addressed by regulation,
so there's no need to switch to socialism...which also
had sweatshops & child labor.
Military expansion is been rife in socialist countries too.

Many capitalist countries are great to live in....economic
success, democracy, liberty. No socialist country ever
offered that. So you've still offered no reason to abandon
capitalism for socialism.

Question....
We have many RF posters from various capitalist countries.
Why don't we see anyone from a socialist country posting here?

 

[Kooky]

My approach is to deal with companies who offer better products.

That's a remarkably naive position that seems to completely ignore the reality of dealing with a limited selection of products.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They Hacked McDonald’s Ice Cream Machines—and Started a Cold War | WIRED

This is a long article, too long to quote, so I'll just give a brief summary.

Apparently, this enterprising young couple, after attempting to start their own frozen yogurt concession, learned quite a bit about Taylor ice cream machines and how unreliable they are. They also were able to figure out that there was a secret menu accessible by a code, which had many features and information which is not available to the end user. Apparently, only authorized service personnel were allowed to know this, but somehow this couple was able to find out.

They were able to learn more about the operations of these Taylor machines, and in the process, they developed a product called "Kytch," which was a device which could be used to override the secret code and access the secret menu for the user. They did this with Taylor's apparent knowledge and consent, at least according to one of the developers of Kytch.

They started selling these devices to McDonalds franchise owners, who apparently have been frustrated by their ice cream machines constantly breaking down. Apparently it's become a national meme, about McDonalds ice cream machines breaking down. The problem is that the machines, described as "overengineered," are very finicky and fragile, where the slightest thing could cause it to stop working. Further compounding the problem is that Taylor has a select group of repair people authorized to work on the machines. The end user isn't allowed to call anyone else, other than the approved repair people. Some of the repairs could have been easily made by the end user if they had access to the "secret menu" on the machine which is only available to the authorized repair people.

This device overrode all of that, but upon learning that franchisee operators were using it, McDonald's put out an email ordering them to cease-and-desist, warning that it would void the warranty on the machine and could cause human injury (although that claim is disputed by the makers of Kytch). Now, the company owners are suing both McDonalds and Taylor. (The article mentioned that Taylor also supplies the grills for McDonalds.)

But it's hard to say what a lawsuit would do, as noted in the final paragraphs:





I never realized there could be so much intrigue in the ice cream machine business.

But it does seem that there's a larger issue about the right to repair. Does the end user have a right to repair something he/she bought from a company? Shouldn't they at least have access to the information that the machine is ostensibly designed to convey? What's with the secret passcode and menu that no one is allowed to see and doesn't appear in any of the service manuals?

I remember when my check engine light was on, I took it to a mechanic I knew. He hooked it up to his computer, and the code said "see dealer." I took it to the dealer, and they said I needed a new fuel pump. But what was this "see dealer" nonsense? The mechanic I knew could have changed out the fuel pump.

Then they wonder why people don't trust capitalists and turn to socialism.

I'm not sure if this is how it works in the US, but the law here - at least for cars - is that if a manufacturer insists that only their technicians service the car to maintain the warranty, then all service has to be provided free of charge (or I guess built into the price of the car).

My take on the ice cream machine issue:

- if the end user has bought the equipment, then they own it. They should have every right to tinker with it as they please. What they do to the machine should only void the warranty if they modify, damage or misuse the machine.

- if the manufacturer wants to restrict what the end user wants to do with the machine, then they can rent or license it to the end user... but then the machine stays the property of the manufacturer, and when the machine reaches its end of life, it's the manufacturer's problem to deal with.

 

[Stevicus]

"Improvement" is a dubious claim.
Moreover, each has still been afflicted with oppression, famine, woe.

I've demonstrated it numerous times. We can look at Russia prior to 1917 or China prior to 1949. Tell me they got worse after their capitalist governments were overthrown.

Slavery has existed under every economic system, including
socialism. So that's a poor basis to criticize captialism.
Sweatshops & child labor are addressed by regulation,
so there's no need to switch to socialism...which also
had sweatshops & child labor.
Military expansion is been rife in socialist countries too.

Many capitalist countries are great to live in....economic
success, democracy, liberty. No socialist country ever
offered that. So you've still offered no reason to abandon
capitalism for socialism.

Well, we were talking about the U.S. government and its history of poor judgment. Capitalist countries are great for those privileged few who live at the very top. Not so much for the rest. Socialist countries offer justice, something capitalist countries are woefully short on.

Question....
We have many RF posters from various capitalist countries.
Why don't we see anyone from a socialist country posting here?

We have posters from Denmark and Norway. We have a poster from Hong Kong, which is technically part of China.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's a remarkably naive position that seems to completely ignore the reality of dealing with a limited selection of products.

It is remarkably naive to ignore the value &
effect of choice & competition in economics.

 

[Revoltingest]

I've demonstrated it numerous times. We can look at Russia prior to 1917 or China prior to 1949. Tell me they got worse after their capitalist governments were overthrown.

Improvement is a highly questionable value judgement.
One must ignore the millions who die from purges, famines,
& war. And then there's the oppression imposed upon the
survivors. This happens without exception in socialist countries.
Contrast this with capitalist countries, some of which offer
liberty & prosperity.

Socialist countries offer justice, something capitalist countries are woefully short on.

You really believe that N Korea, Cuba, & China have more justice
than every capitalist country? Your sense of justice must differ
greatly from mine.

We have posters from Denmark and Norway. We have a poster from Hong Kong, which is technically part of China.

Denmark & Norway are capitalist countries.
Denmark to American leftists: We’re not socialist
Economists in Denmark to America: Yeah, We're Not Socialist - El American

Hong Kong is still somewhat independent from China.
But your argument would suggest that they'll soon be
better off when under the PRC government.
Of course, that's complicated by China's still having
the old commie style powerful central government
which allows guided capitalism.