• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

American Gods: an appearance by Kalimaa?

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Did they put Jesus and Jahweh in? After all, they are the true "American" gods. They could make Jesus deforest places and burn people with hot lava or drive their demon mind out. Jahweh could turn people into salt pillars or drown them in floods.

If they are not in, what do you think is the reason as they are the obvious "American" gods?
And what makes Kali an "American" god?

Yes, Jesus was in last season's final episode.

The name 'American Gods' refers to the gods of modern America that people are coming to worship... Technology, Finance, Media, Globalization, Social Media... in place of the 'old gods' from antiquity and other cultures. The 'old gods' are mounting a battle to regain their worshipers and wrest them from the new gods of the new world.

So maybe you should have done some research before jumping to conclusions about the premise, which clearly you know nothing about... hmm???
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Did they put Jesus and Jahweh in? After all, they are the true "American" gods. They could make Jesus deforest places and burn people with hot lava or drive their demon mind out. Jahweh could turn people into salt pillars or drown them in floods.

If they are not in, what do you think is the reason as they are the obvious "American" gods?
And what makes Kali an "American" god?
American Gods is a re-imagining of a plethora of gods & how they function.
I'm reminded of a fundie friend back in the late 70s who didn't like Star Wars
because it didn't comport with biblical scripture. It's all about poetic license.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
American Gods is a re-imagining of a plethora of gods & how they function.
I'm reminded of a fundie friend back in the late 70s who didn't like Star Wars
because it didn't comport with biblical scripture. It's all about poetic license.

Side note: it was Star Wars' concept of the Force that rekindled the spark of my interest in Hinduism, especially Advaita (non-duality, a single unifying concept).
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Did they put Jesus and Jahweh in? After all, they are the true "American" gods. They could make Jesus deforest places and burn people with hot lava or drive their demon mind out. Jahweh could turn people into salt pillars or drown them in floods.

If they are not in, what do you think is the reason as they are the obvious "American" gods?
And what makes Kali an "American" god?

I was wondering about that myself, although I'm not too sure that Jesus or Yahweh would be considered "American" gods, since they're (more or less) European imports.

I guess the only uniquely "American" gods would be the gods of the indigenous Native Americans.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I was wondering about that myself, although I'm not too sure that Jesus or Yahweh would be considered "American" gods, since they're (more or less) European imports.

I guess the only uniquely "American" gods would be the gods of the indigenous Native Americans.
"American gods" are the gods who are here in Ameristan.
Like the rest of us denizens, they too are immigrants,
eg, Mr Wednesday (Odin), who hails from Scandinavia.
Mr World though, could've always been here.
To say more would possibly spoil it for some.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I was wondering about that myself, although I'm not too sure that Jesus or Yahweh would be considered "American" gods, since they're (more or less) European imports.

I guess the only uniquely "American" gods would be the gods of the indigenous Native Americans.

In addition to what I said about the “American Gods” being personifications of the modern world, it also refers to the old gods being immigrants to America. Like our immigrant ancestors who became Americans, the old gods have become Americans.

They each came to America about the same time their worshipers originally did... the African gods came with the slaves; the Egyptian gods came thousands of years ago with ancient Egyptian traders and explorers; Odin came with the first Norsemen to North America; Kali with the Indian diaspora; and so on.

Like their worshipers who struggled to make lives in the new world, the gods did too. However, the gods exist and succeed only when their worshipers remember them. But life became so good for the worshipers they became seduced by the new gods of the modern world, and are forgetting their old gods.
 

Cassandra

Active Member
Yes, Jesus was in last season's final episode.

The name 'American Gods' refers to the gods of modern America that people are coming to worship... Technology, Finance, Media, Globalization, Social Media... in place of the 'old gods' from antiquity and other cultures. The 'old gods' are mounting a battle to regain their worshipers and wrest them from the new gods of the new world.

So maybe you should have done some research before jumping to conclusions about the premise, which clearly you know nothing about... hmm???
Yes, Jesus was in last season's final episode.

The name 'American Gods' refers to the gods of modern America that people are coming to worship... Technology, Finance, Media, Globalization, Social Media... in place of the 'old gods' from antiquity and other cultures. The 'old gods' are mounting a battle to regain their worshipers and wrest them from the new gods of the new world.

So maybe you should have done some research before jumping to conclusions about the premise, which clearly you know nothing about... hmm???
So what is the role of Jesus?

My view:

I have a problem with using Gods from other religions in a Marvel like setting, especially if it is reinforcing stereotypes. As you are a Hindu you probably know there is a lot more to Goddess Kali then being a demon fighter and that there are different traditions of Kali. Christians tend to zoom in a later tradition of a sect and grossly misrepresent that to create a false picture. That is what Abrahamic religions do in their conversion practices.

In the original tradition Kali is one of the manifestations of the mother Goddess, but she is not the one that kills the demons, that is Durga. Kali is not the killer, but this is easily misunderstood by the symbols she is carrying, like chopped off heads and swords who are misunderstood by westerners.

The Story of the "blood seed" demon tells that Durga chopped of the heads of the Demon but from the blood drops falling on the Earth new demons arose. So then another Manifestation of Mother Goddess catches the droplets of blood to prevent them from rebirth. In the most popular variation of the story she stretches herself out on the earth to catch every droplet (in another she catches the blood in a cup).

Kali is considered the darkness in which everything exists before it is born. Kali is the womb. It is Durga who kills the blood seed demon, but it is Kali who prevents it from being reborn. that is her task. She keeps them in the womb. This only happens at the end of the Kali era (Iron Age). In this way she brings about a new cycle.

These story is related to Shiva, the male aspect of Shiva-Shakti or both of them. A Story like Shiva drinking the poison after churning the celestial ocean to save the world has similar meaning. (possibly the story of Odysseus and the Hydra). Westerners easily misunderstand the iconography with Kali sticking out a red tongue as being a "bloodthirsty" killer. This the opposite of the truth. To Kali the blood of the Demons is like poison. To overcome that she bites with her white teeth on her red tongue, The blood is actually guna rajas and the with teeth represent guna sattva. Still she get so over-exited by all this blood and starts dancing so violently that it shakes the world and threatens its existence and Shiva has to calm her down with Tamas guna, He does that by laying down over the earth protecting it this way, and so she can release the energy in a safe way.

Kali is not some Goddess in the Indian pantheon whose task it is to kill of demons. And she not part of a team of avengers saving the world. These are the wrongful ideas of westerners about what they consider polytheistic religion. But Kali is simply an aspect of the Divine mother that is an aspect of Shiva-Shakti. These things are so far beyond American understanding that is so filled with dichotomies that any use of Gods from other cultures can only create misconceptions and sadly in the mass media these misconceptions then endure for centuries. Also in Europe, historians are often horrified by the popular books that Americans write as they do there best to create a better understanding, but they simply can not compete with tv-series and books that are made to be juicy and sell content and make $.

The idea that Technology, Finance, Media, Globalization, Social Media are Demons are not Hindu ideas either. This is rather an idea found in Judaism that revering anything that is not their God is worshiping idols. If you are a baseball fan? That is worshiping idols too in this thinking. Abrahamic thinking is based on idealistic thinking. This is not the same but rather the opposite of Dharmic thinking. The strong dichotomy of good vs evil is Abrahamic in nature.

The battle described above is not the battle of man fighting against Evil, but rather a description of the phases in cycles we go through. It is how the Gods preserve the Universe. They do that by acting out their Nature. Te stories explain their role in nature and how they interact with each other. This is not a moralistic concept like in Abrahamism, in which man is made to choose for the right side or the wrong side in a moral war. It is much more nuanced, complex, subtle than that. The things that American writers let out because it does not sell well to the masses.

In another post you argue that creating more interest for Hinduism is good. But Hinduism does not seek expansion through promotion which is basically a form of conversion. In fact this kind of interest only brings down traditions. I can see it my country. At first there were people who were generally interested not only in Yoga but the philosophy behind it and its place in broader way of life. They became good yoga teachers. But their success then sparked something else.

Today Yoga has become big business with endless variations from power yoga to healing yoga surrounded by nonsense and is mostly in the hands of imposters that have found it a way to make an easy buck. They have driven out the good schools with schools based on western taste. That is what popularity does. I do not believe these TV-series do Hinduism any good, on the contrary. It turns into commerce. Do companies like McDonalds help promote good food? No in countries like France and Italy they are destroying the eating culture, both economically and by the use of taste enhancers that destroy peopleś pallets making then unable to distinguish quality food.

That is why such TV-series is in itself a paradox as it is itself part of the demonic manifestation that in the series is battled. And the American way of battling evil is actually throwing more fuel on the fire.

No if demons are to be fought this way that is part of Western tradition not Dharmic traditions. And most of all it is American tradition because the US is probably the most Abrahamic fundamentalist country in the world. And American politics have made the idea of fighting demons a justification for foreign politics, like calling countries part of axis of evil and that kind of stuff. So let Abrahamic Gods fight this battle, it is their battle against their own demons. Because that is what happens when you descend in the lower roams of consciousness. Everything becomes the enemy and constant wars must be fought by man to overcome evil. But never does this lead to a restoration of balance and harmony.

No Hindu Gods are not going to side with the "Avengers" in there everlasting battle against evil. That is a misrepresentation of the complex role of all the aspects of Nature Gods. and if American Commerce organizes it, it is more like a demonic spell. Of course everybody is free, but I would not promote this.
 
Last edited:

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
There's an American tv show on Starz channel called American Gods. It's in it's second season. The premise of the show is a coming war between the "old gods" and "new gods". The old gods are those of the old world who were worshiped in the past, but who are no longer worshiped in favor of the new gods. The new gods represent technology, finance, media, and other aspects of the modern world. The old gods want to bring worshipers back to them.

The leader of the old gods is Odin, called Mr. Wednesday. A few of the others:
Czernobog and Zorya Vechernyaya from Slavic religion;
Vulcan from Roman religion;
The Greek pantheon;
Ostara;
African religion, represented by Anansi, a trickster god (called Mr. Nancy);
An ill-tempered 6'5" leprechaun (named Mad Sweeney);
A jinn.

And the most surprising one to me is possibly an appearance by Goddess Kali of Hinduism. What leads me to this conclusion is that in one scene Mad Sweeney, Mr. Wednesday and Anansi are in the parking lot of a diner discussing the death and funeral of Zorya Vechernyaya.

An Indian woman in a waitress's uniform is with them. Mr. Wednesday says to her "Mama-ji, I may need your blades". She responds with "So, back to lopping off heads, drinking blood and liberating souls; if I can switch weekend shifts with [I didn't catch the name]".

Hmm... !

I have not seen the tv show but am just starting to read the book. Neil Gaiman ranks up there among my favourite authors.

I wonder how the series stacks up to the book
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
So what is the role of Jesus?

I have a problem with using Gods from other religions in a Marvel like setting, especially if it is reinforcing stereotypes. As you are a Hindu you probably know there is a lot more to Goddess Kali then being a demon fighter and that there are different traditions of Kali. Christians tend to zoom in a later tradition of a sect and grossly misrepresent that to create a false picture. That is what Abrahamic religions do in their conversion practices.

In the orginal tradition Kali is one of the manifestations of the mother Goddess, but she is not the one that kills the demons, that is Durga. Kali does not the killer, but this is easily misunderstood by the symbols she is carrying, like chopped off heads and swords who are misunderstood by westerners.

The Story of the "blood seed" demon tells that Durga chopped of the heads of the Demon but from the blood drops falling on the Earth new demons arose. So then another Manifestation of Mother Goddess catches the droplets of blood to prevent them from rebirth. In the most popular variation of the story she stretches herself out on the earth to catch every droplet (in one she catches the blood in a cup).

Kali is considered the darkness in which everything everything exists before it is born. Kali is the womb. It is Durga who kills the blood seed demon, but it is Kali who prevents it from being reborn. that is her task. She keeps them in the womb. This only happens at the end of the Kali era (Iron Age). In this way she brings about a new cycle.

These story is related to Shiva who the male aspect of Shiva-Shakti or both of them. A Story like Shiva drinking the poison after churning the celestial ocean to save the world has similar meaning. Westerners easily misunderstand the iconography with Kali sticking out a red tongue as being a "bloodthirsty" killer. This the opposite of the truth. To Kali the blood of the Demons is like poison to overcome that she bites with her white teeth on her red tongue, The blood is actually guna rajas and the with teeth represent guna sattva. Still she get so over-exited by all this blood and starts dancing so violently that it shakes the world and threatens existence and Shiva has to calm her down with Tamas guna, He does that by laying down over the earth protecting it this way, and so she can release the energy in a safe way.

Kali is not some Goddess in the Indian pantheon whose task it is to kill of demons. And she not part of a team of avengers saving the world. These are the simplistic ideas of westerner about what they consider polytheistic religion. But Kali is simply an aspect of the Divine mother that an aspect of Shiva-Shakti. These things are so far beyond American understanding that is filled with simple dichotomies that any use of Gods from other cultures can only create misconceptions and sadly in the mass media this creates misconceptions that can endure for centuries. Even in Europe historians are often horrified by the popular books that Americans write as they do there best to create a better understanding, but they simply can not compete with tv-series and books that are made to be juicy and sell content and make $.

he idea that Technology, Finance, Media, Globalization, Social Media are Demons are not Hindu ideas either. This is rather an idea found in Judaism that revering anything that is not their God is worshiping idols. If you are a baseball fan? That is worshiping idols too in this thinking. Abrahamic thinking is based on idealistic thinking. This is not the same but rather the opposite of Dharmic thinking. The strong dichotomy of good vs evil is Abrahamic in nature.

The battle described above is not the battle of man fighting against Evil, but rather a description of the phases in cycles we go through. It is how the Gods who preserve the Universe by simply doing what it is in their Nature and explaining their role in nature and how they interact with each other. A not simplistic moralistic concept like in Abrahamism, in which man is made to choose for the right side or the wrong side. It is much more nuanced, complex, subtle than that. The kind of that American let out because it does not sell to the masses.

In your another post you suggest that creating more interest for Hinduism is good. But Hinduism does not seek expansion through promotion is which is basically a form of conversion. In fact this kind of interest only brings down traditions. I can see it my country. At first there were people who were generally interested not only in Yoga but the philosophy behind it and its place in broader way of life. They became good yoga teachers. But their success then sparked something else.

Today Yoga has become big business with endless variations from power yoga to healing yoga surrounded by incredible bull**** and mostly in the hands of imposters that have found it a way to make an easy buck. They have driven the good schools out with schools that are based on western taste. That is what popularity does. I do not believe these TV-series do Hinduism any good, on the contrary. It turns into commerce

That is why such TV-series is in itself a paradox as it is exactly part of the demonic manifestation that in the series is battled. And American way of battling evil is actually throwing more fuel of the fire.

No if demons are to be fought this way that is part of Western tradition, Dharmic traditions. And most of all it is American tradition because the US is probably the most Abrahamic fundamentalist country in the world. And American politics have made fighting demons as justification for foreign politics, like calling countries axis of evil and that kind of stuff. So let Abrahamic Gods fight this battle, it is their battle against their own demons. Because that is what happens when you descend in the lower roams of consciousness. Everything becomes the enemy and constant wars must be fought by man to overcome evil. But never does this lead to a restoration of balance and harmony.

No Hindu Gods are not going to side in there everlasting battle against evil. That is a misrepresentation of the complex role of all the aspects of Hindu gods in Nature. and if American Commerce organizes it, it is more like demonic spell. Of course everybody is free, but I would not promote this.

Its a fictional entertainment by a fantasy writer. Its not meant to be taken as reality.
If it we not popular (profitable) series 2 wouldn't be.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I have not seen the tv show but am just starting to read the book. Neil Gaiman ranks up there among my favourite authors.

I wonder how the series stacks up to the book

I haven’t read the book but I’m getting intrigued.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Its a fictional entertainment by a fantasy writer. Its not meant to be taken as reality.
If it we not popular (profitable) series 2 wouldn't be.
Perhaps there's a sense of cultural appropriation & disrespect going on.
That happens a lot on TV.
 

Cassandra

Active Member
Its a fictional entertainment by a fantasy writer. Its not meant to be taken as reality.
If it we not popular (profitable) series 2 wouldn't be.
But that just lies at the heart of the problem and why it is so insulting.

The meta message it basically transmits is: These are fantasy figures and so we throw them in with the other fantasy figures. Now a person having no religion may agree with that, but for other people these Gods are not fantasy figures but very real and highly revered and demanding Respect.

Now if Americans want to do that with their own Gods Jesus, Jahweh, and Allah (no 1, 2 and 3), they can battle it out among themselves. But of course they are wary of that, because that leads to protest, may even harm income, so lets abuse foreign gods in a fantasy story and call it "the American Gods"'. Maybe it even serves a hidden purpose as Abrahamics like to ridicule other religions.After all Abrahamist religions have denied for thousands of years that other Gods exists outside of their own. Those are fantasies.

Now there is a lot of variety in Hinduism and some American Hindus may say: It brings more people to the temple and more money, and we do not revere Kali, so what do we care? And if other Hindus have a problem with that, that is their problem not ours. Some of these sects are not really part of Sanatan Dharm and do not feel obliged by the same principles. And that is fine.
 
Last edited:
Top