American Equality threatened by Religion?

[Sententia]

Not all religious people and not all religions were responsible for prop. 8.

I would agree but go back and ready J Bryson and Mestemia's posts above.

Likewise, there are plenty of atheists who are against gay marriage, as well. It is not just a religious thing.

I would immediately question your sources. That is not to say there can't be an atheist against gay marriage... I have never met one. But it is a religious thing. I have quoted the bible to you above. An atheist doesn't believe in a god. That's it. A christian believes in the bible and the bible says homosexuality is so bad and so wrong that you are to kill and murder them and you will not be held responsible by god. Their blood is on their hands. Thats the christian bible.

It isn't really fair to dump all problems and all complaints against theists. Atheists aren't any more perfect than theists are, in general.

No one is dumping all problems. This is one problem. And its not all theists. Some theists dont have a problem with homosexuality. But there is no atheist union or organization that preaches homosexuality is wrong. There is however a bible condoning hatred and inviting murder for people who are gay. What I take away from the bible as an atheist and that gay people were here during biblical times and prevalent enough that they had to include them in the bible. When are people going to realize that some people are gay and some people have brown eyes and big noses. They are not going to go away, nor should they.

And no one is implying atheists are more perfect. The stated argument and posts never implies that.

 

[Storm]

Depends.
I fully understand that religion is oft times a scapegoat for people to justify their bias and prejudice.

However, when a religious text flat out claims that a group of people are an affront to nature and are to be killed for it.....

A fair point. However...
1) That same text also claims that all sorts of things are "abominations" and nobody has a problem ditching those things. So why do they harp on this one? The only conclusion I can come to is that they're already bigots, looking for justification.

2) Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying religious institutions are blameless. It just strikes me that some people think "religion is against same-sex marriage, and liberals aren't" and it's just not that black and white. The religious left exists, and the opposition is, as Christine is trying to point out, more than just the Baptists and LDS.

 

[J Bryson]

It's true that there is a religious left. I just wish that we were more effective, and had better spokespeople.

 

[Storm]

It's true that there is a religious left. I just wish that we were more effective, and had better spokespeople.

Amen! :shout

 

[EverChanging]

I agree that most of the time, religion is probably just an excuse to act on pre-existing prejudices; otherwise, conservative Christians would condemn eating shellfish and stone their children to death for being disrespectful.

But religion has often been used to incite hatred and violence in people who otherwise would not feel that way -- I know from personal experience. I never became violent, but I came from a religious background that completely poisoned my mind and turned me into a narrow, bitter person until I was able to break away from the indoctrination.

There is still a place for spirituality in me -- for lack of a better term -- but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop criticising fundamentalism and other types of harmful religion. I find that both people on the religious right AND the left (and Americans in general) are often extremely reluctant to challenge a religious group no matter what they do, just because it is a religion. Even when they are opposed to certain practices, instead of criticising the religion or members of the religion, they will instead find one good thing about it and only talk about that.

I often wonder why that is. Why do we have to be so biased in favor of religion -- of any sort -- that we will praise its good aspects while never having the guts to point out the bad?

 

[Stellify]

IMO, the "religious types" that are against gay marriage should learn to recognize the difference between a religious marriage and a legal one.

As much as I don't like the prejudice a religion may have in not allowing its members to join in same-sex marriage, I don't think any religion should be forced to allow it...if it's against the religion, it's against the religion, y'know?

Legal marriages, on the other hand, are another matter. As has been said, people should have equal rights.

 

[Smoke]

When bigotry veils itself in religion, is that the fault of the faith?

Yes. When a religious organization officially endorses bigotry, that organization's leadership is directly responsible for endorsing bigotry, and its membership is guilty of supporting it. The fact that you are religious does not confer exemption from moral responsibility for your actions.

 

[Storm]

Why do we have to be so biased in favor of religion -- of any sort -- that we will praise its good aspects while never having the guts to point out the bad?

I refer you to linwood's thread: Moderate Enablers

 

[Storm]

Yes. When a religious organization officially endorses bigotry, that organization's leadership is directly responsible for endorsing bigotry, and its membership is guilty of supporting it. The fact that you are religious does not confer exemption from moral responsibility for your actions.

Well said.

 

[McBell]

A fair point. However...
1) That same text also claims that all sorts of things are "abominations" and nobody has a problem ditching those things. So why do they harp on this one? The only conclusion I can come to is that they're already bigots, looking for justification.

BUt then that is the follower picking and choosing which of his religions rules s/he will and will not follow.
The religions rules are the religions rules even when that religions followers choose not to follow said rule.

Now do not get me wrong.
I can see the argument from a Christians POV that the rules of the OT were 'fulfilled' in the NT.
However, I fail to understand their pick and choose attitude as to which OT rules were fulfilled and which ones weren't.

2) Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying religious institutions are blameless. It just strikes me that some people think "religion is against same-sex marriage, and liberals aren't" and it's just not that black and white. The religious left exists, and the opposition is, as Christine is trying to point out, more than just the Baptists and LDS.

I understand that it is not black and white.
However, the fact remains that Prop 8 is a religiously motivated amendment aimed at enforcing a perceived religious rule.

 

[Apex]

The religious left exists, and the opposition is, as Christine is trying to point out, more than just the Baptists and LDS.

It is also fair to note that even with in the groups who are largely pushing against gay marriage not all of them share the same opinion, they are also split.

 

[Smoke]

It is also fair to note that even with in the groups who are largely pushing against gay marriage not all of them share the same opinion, they are also split.

True enough. Every person who supports those groups with his time, his money, and his loyalty is helping to harm gay people, but they do sometimes have personal opinions that it would be better not to harm gay people.