AMA: Practioner of Thelema

[1137]

Did Crowley have a goal of battling Christianity with black magick?
Since you said, as a member of OTO, that you are questioning everything he said, I have to ask you, is that goal still one of OTO's goals?

If I may chime in, Crowley certainly had a focus on going against Christianity. This is not surprising, as he was raised in a crazy cult family who thought he was the devil incarnate.

 

[Covellite]

This is not surprising, as he was raised in a crazy cult family who thought he was the devil incarnate.

LOL
Even his family shared the common myth about his devilish nature

 

[Octavia156]

Why some of long-time high-ranking members called for the resignation of upper management and stepped down from all managerial duties in protest? What was the nature of there's protests? Any truth behind?

When Louis McMurtry died he did not name a successor. There was a huge debateover who should take over - many thought a number high ranking members should take over as OHO. In the end it was decided that Willima Breeze (a IVth degree at the time) should lead the order.
Some people were pissed off... usual politics type stuff.

Every organisation has issues when it comes to management. In OTO if you dont like it, people can either like it, lump it and get on with it or leave. Many of those that left became very mouthy about it. Human nature etc etc

 

[Octavia156]

@Octavia156

The problem with this is that AL encourages thelemites to fight as kings and brothers, like chess. Crowley's comment contradicts this. As for the poetry, whether there was an "insert here" or not, the speakers say, repeatedly, not to change or add anything - a strange oversight. Other examples include the insertion of straight golden dawn ideology, such as I:49. It strips individuality from practitioners because they only have one external source - Crowley. This is like only having one scientific journal that's considered reliable and is owned by creationists.

The Set-Horus current, Aiwass as a Sumerian god, and all that is in Equinox of the Gods, as far as I remember. You're probably more well versed than I. Further, Set is called a twin to Horus, and Set plays a central role in the Gnostic mass. How is all this addressed?

I'd argue Crowley wrote the comment - the Book was not written by *him*.
Paradoxes are to be meditated on as they often lead the the strongest Gnosis.
I don't see a specific insertion of the Golden Dawn refs I:49....

I can catagorically affirm that Set plays no part in the Gnostic Mass WHATSOEVER.

 

[1137]

I'd argue Crowley wrote the comment - the Book was not written by *him*.
Paradoxes are to be meditated on as they often lead the the strongest Gnosis.
I don't see a specific insertion of the Golden Dawn refs I:49....

I can catagorically affirm that Set plays no part in the Gnostic Mass WHATSOEVER.

From the mass:

"The DEACON and all the PEOPLE: I believe in one secret and ineffable LORD; and in one Star in the Company of Stars of whose fire we are created, and to which we shall return; and in one Father of Life, Mystery of Mystery, in His name CHAOS, the sole viceregent of the Sun upon the Earth; and in one Air the nourisher of all that breathes."

Emphasis is mine.

 

[Octavia156]

In all my training and instruction in preparation for my ordination as a Priestess of Ecclesia Gnostic Catholica, I have never once heard any notion equating the chaos mentioned in our creed with the Egyptian god Set.

If you have read such a thing somewhere please site it for me and I will question my instructing Bishop on the matter.

The Creed of EGC sites our belief in the fundamental principles of nature: The Sun, Thermodynamics, The Earth (womb), The Creative Force(sperm and egg), Free Will, The Promulgation of DNA, Respiration(Spiritual Energy), Life/Death and the Soul.

 

[1137]

In all my training and instruction in preparation for my ordination as a Priestess of Ecclesia Gnostic Catholica, I have never once heard any notion equating the chaos mentioned in our creed with the Egyptian god Set.

If you have read such a thing somewhere please site it for me and I will question my instructing Bishop on the matter.

The Creed of EGC sites our belief in the fundamental principles of nature: The Sun, Thermodynamics, The Earth (womb), The Creative Force(sperm and egg), Free Will, The Promulgation of DNA, Respiration(Spiritual Energy), Life/Death and the Soul.

Nobody ever once thought "hey, maybe chaos is somehow related to the Egyptian god of chaos in our Egyptian-esque religion?" Not only do I find this hard to believe, but I find it very concerning. The mass clearly makes this god of chaos out to be very important, in the connection is blatantly clear. Even if you wanted to argue that it's Nun, the primordial waters, it's Gnostic, and Set is the Gnostic equivalent of that primordial water.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Nobody ever once thought "hey, maybe chaos is somehow related to the Egyptian god of chaos in our Egyptian-esque religion?" Not only do I find this hard to believe, but I find it very concerning. The mass clearly makes this god of chaos out to be very important, in the connection is blatantly clear. Even if you wanted to argue that it's Nun, the primordial waters, it's Gnostic, and Set is the Gnostic equivalent of that primordial water.

Set was only considered a god of trickery and chaos after third intermediate and late periods of Egypt.

 

[1137]

Set was only considered a god of trickery and chaos after third intermediate and late periods of Egypt.

Set's association with chaos would have been the most well known to Crowley at the time this came about. It was rather recently, all things considered, that anyone not specifically in Egyptology would begin to see Set as he really was. Even then though, Set was separate from the other gods, god of outsiders and the desert, all such "chaotic" things for a very long time.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Set's association with chaos would have been the most well known to Crowley at the time this came about. It was rather recently, all things considered, that anyone not specifically in Egyptology would begin to see Set as he really was. Even then though, Set was separate from the other gods, god of outsiders and the desert, all such "chaotic" things for a very long time.

You could argue pretty much any deity to be chaotic based on some of it's domains, but the fact was it was not a god of chaos to begin with.

 

[Covellite]

You could argue pretty much any deity to be chaotic based on some of it's domains, but the fact was it was not a god of chaos to begin with.

Set during the long time of ancient Egypt went through a lot of identity transformations. Today, academic egyptologist define his final phase as he was a god of storms, desert, chaos and war. Set's negative aspects were strong during that period.

 

[1137]

You could argue pretty much any deity to be chaotic based on some of it's domains, but the fact was it was not a god of chaos to begin with.

Not only were the negative aspects of Set the strongest and most recent, as @Covellite stated, but what matters is that is how the OTO, Crowley himself, etc would have seen Set when the GCM was written.

 

[Octavia156]

93

The Creed of the Gnostic Mass is not a list of gods we believe in. so No "Nobody ever once thought "hey, maybe chaos is somehow related to the Egyptian god of chaos in our Egyptian-esque religion?""
Chaos is about the element of AIR.

We are not an Egyptian-esque religion!
There's no ISIS,OSIRIS,HORUS/SET

It Nuit,Hadit,and Ra-Hoor-Kuit.

It would really benefit your understanding if you tried to move away from trying to equate Thelemic ideololgies/archetypes with the classic Egyptian gods. They overlap simply because Crowley was in Egypt when a lot of this magickal work was being conducted but they are not the same.

Show me a source of writing in which Crowley talks about Set and we can move this discussion forward. Until then I'mafraid I'm going to have to fundamentally diagree with the premise that the Gnostic Mass includes any reference to Set.

I know the entire mass off my heart and have performed it for 8 years in over 6 countries.... I know the ritua inside out. I would be astonished to find a source stating Set has any meaningful aspect of it. The Gnostic Mass has a very specific magical forumla.

 

[Covellite]

Not only were the negative aspects of Set the strongest and most recent, as @Covellite stated, but what matters is that is how the OTO, Crowley himself, etc would have seen Set when the GCM was written.

I am for certainly wrong, IMVPO Set has been seen as very powerful protector, willing to run a battle since his nature.

 

[Octavia156]

I will though, for clarity, ask my Bishop what he thinks of your theory.

 

[1137]

I am for certainly wrong, IMVPO Set has been seen as very powerful protector, willing to run a battle since his nature.

To some, yes. Not to the mind of a modern magician in the late 1800s - early 1900s.

 

[Covellite]

To some, yes. Not to the mind of a modern magician in the late 1800s - early 1900s.

I completely agree with Octavia that Thelema is not an Egyptian-esque religion.
Not so long ago, you said that you know why A.C. hated Christianity so much - very likely to be true. I can see it's a true as Octavia said that A.C. hated Christianity because his believes in religion without dogmas.
Magicians in the late 1800's - early 1900's could've been easily fascinated with an ancient Egyptian mythology because there were so many reasons. That was a period in history when intensive archaeological work has been run in Egypt. So many well preserved artifacts were found (including artifact No_666) and most noble aristocrats invested much time and funds in researches. The mystery of Egypt has captured the imagination of people in an enormous way. The culture of the Egyptians is full of mystery and intrigue even in our-days.
But, A.C. was also very interested in far east, ancient Greece and Rome, Renaissance mythology and especially in John Dee's and Kelly's work, too.
IMVPO Thelema is not a compilation of ancient Gods and artifacts. It's a true religion of the new age, unique and contemporary in every single aspect. A.C. was a rebellious, hard working genius, so his legacy is too.

 

[1137]

I completely agree with Octavia that Thelema is not an Egyptian-esque religion.
Not so long ago, you said that you know why A.C. hated Christianity so much - very likely to be true. I can see it's a true as Octavia said that A.C. hated Christianity because his believes in religion without dogmas.
Magicians in the late 1800's - early 1900's could've been easily fascinated with an ancient Egyptian mythology because there were so many reasons. That was a period in history when intensive archaeological work has been run in Egypt. So many well preserved artifacts were found (including artifact No_666) and most noble aristocrats invested much time and funds in researches. The mystery of Egypt has captured the imagination of people in an enormous way. The culture of the Egyptians is full of mystery and intrigue even in our-days.
But, A.C. was also very interested in far east, ancient Greece and Rome, Renaissance mythology and especially in John Dee's and Kelly's work, too.
IMVPO Thelema is not a compilation of ancient Gods and artifacts. It's a true religion of the new age, unique and contemporary in every single aspect. A.C. was a rebellious, hard working genius, so his legacy is too.

Interesting, I've certainly never seen it that way.

 

[Octavia156]

I completely agree with Octavia that Thelema is not an Egyptian-esque religion.
Not so long ago, you said that you know why A.C. hated Christianity so much - very likely to be true. I can see it's a true as Octavia said that A.C. hated Christianity because his believes in religion without dogmas.
Magicians in the late 1800's - early 1900's could've been easily fascinated with an ancient Egyptian mythology because there were so many reasons. That was a period in history when intensive archaeological work has been run in Egypt. So many well preserved artifacts were found (including artifact No_666) and most noble aristocrats invested much time and funds in researches. The mystery of Egypt has captured the imagination of people in an enormous way. The culture of the Egyptians is full of mystery and intrigue even in our-days.
But, A.C. was also very interested in far east, ancient Greece and Rome, Renaissance mythology and especially in John Dee's and Kelly's work, too.
IMVPO Thelema is not a compilation of ancient Gods and artifacts. It's a true religion of the new age, unique and contemporary in every single aspect. A.C. was a rebellious, hard working genius, so his legacy is too.

Beautifully put.... you can add Eastern tantra to the list of areas AC was interested in. Hence why OTO/Thelema is so steeped in both Eastern and Western msysticism

 

[1137]

The thing for me is that the entire foundation is obviously Egyptian, with Egyptian myth at the center. Considering that Crowley was all about correspondences, it seems to me he just took from Egyptian and Hebrew religions and made everything fit with them.