AMA: Practioner of Thelema

[Octavia156]

I've been a member of OTO for over 8 years now and have been practising Thelema and Thelemic Magick for a decade.

Feel free to ask me any questions and hopefully clear up the mass ambiguity and disinformation out there concerning the religion of Thelema, the OTO, A.'.A.'., EGC and the work of Aleister Crowley.

By day I'm a Director of an Renewable Energy-Storage start-up company. I also work for a corporate management consultancy firm assisting in accelerated problem solving. Prior to this I spent 8 years teaching High School Science and Physics.
In short I'd like to think I'm a responsible, academic and respectable member of society, and not a cranky believer boardering on the unsane

Hoping to dispel the myth surrounding the "wickested man in the world" and the false notion of the fatalism of Thelemic ideology.

 

[Covellite]

Do you think that Aleister Crowley was an exceptional magician and do you ever question his authority or anything he has done or said?

 

[Covellite]

Do you feel that in O.T.O. men are more privileged then women?

 

[Octavia156]

Do you think that Aleister Crowley was an exceptional magician and do you ever question his authority or anything he has done or said?

I think Aleister Crowley was a truely exceptional magician - "by their fruits ye shall know them"

In terms of authority - he has none, he's dead!
I question EVERYTHING he has done and said In fact Crowleys actions in his life-time are completely irrelevant to me. His ideas I question, but always seek to try and understand what he was saying cause he was a genius. Doesnt mean I agree with everything though, most things resonate with me, but not everything.

Thelema is certainly not a cult of "WWCD" and I imagine he'd turn in his orbit if he thought it was.

 

[Octavia156]

Do you feel that in O.T.O. men are more privileged then women?

Most certainly NOT. "Every man and woman is a star - every number is infinite there is no difference" but if anything women are more privileged than men in OTO.....in my experience women are especially held in the highest regard and treated with the utmost respect. You will also find alot of women hold high positions of authority in OTO.

The reverence Thelema holds for the female is reflected in our most central rite - Liber XV - where the woman is elevated to a position of God-head, while the man remains as a mortal priest.

The sacred feminine is worshipped and recognised very strongly in Thelema, and as such women are treated very much as equals to men in OTO.

 

[Covellite]

Do some rituals have a sexual nature, like masturbation, vaginal and anal intercourse, because A.C. strongly encouraged use of sex in magick (union of sex and spirituality) ?
Same question about abusing psychedelic and opioid drug substances?

 

[Covellite]

"Civilization is crumbling under our eyes and I believe that the best chance of saving what little is worth saving, and rebuilding the Temple of the Holy Ghost on plans, and with material and workmanship, which shall be free from the errors of the former, lies with the O.T.O."
Aleister Crowley, The Confessions

Is it true that every member of O.T.O. is required to introduce the organization to his/her friends and to people in high positions in society, because the ultimate intent of O.T.O. to have the ruling position in every country? If spreading O.T.O. influence is one of ultimate goals, do you find that O.T.O. is successful or failed?
Is O.T.O. now on the lowest point since the beginning, considering number of new members (do you have a significant number of new members?) and no growth in high degrees?
Did A.C. wanted to reach the world domination by O.T.O. organization? If that was his intention is a general "failure" present situation of O.T.O.?
If I just look at RF, it seems to me that I am the only one who has some interest in your OP?

 

[Octavia156]

Do some rituals have a sexual nature, like masturbation, vaginal and anal intercourse, because A.C. strongly encouraged use of sex in magick (union of sex and spirituality) ?
Same question about abusing psychedelic and opioid drug substances?

Firstly what AC did in his private life must not been confused with OTO. For the example drugs are banned at official OTO meetings.

Yes indeed some rituals have a sexual overtones but in allegorical form - sex is necessary for creation and can't be ignored. The Sex in rituals I s symbolic.

Anyone is welcome to practise sex magic, mastibate and have anal sex in the privacy on their homes... It wouldn't happen in temple! The sex magical principle does play out in ritual form, again though through the use metaphors.

Can't speak for what goes on in the after parties... Though such practises are unlikely... We are an academic, relatively serious bunch, mostly with spouses, partners and kids... There are no sensational orgies in OTO!

 

[1137]

1. What do you think of The Comment? We know Crowley only added it when the initiatory system was questioned, his rank included. I mean, the initiatory system was pre-aeon, and therefore a black religion of old. Crowley even took away the ability for individual thought on the subject, allowing only for his own thoughts. Isn't this all just a bit... Discrediting?

2. In that same vein, we know Crowley added and changed the Book of the Law, despite being told by the Speaker not to change a single letter. He added in poetry, seeped it in golden dawn mythology, and of course added the comment. How does this effect the text and the religion of Crowley?

3. In some of his writing, Crowley associated the Speaker with Set, claiming it was his oldest, Sumerian form. You said elsewhere that Set plays no role in Thelema, but if we can only appeal to Crowley's writings then that seems to be incorrect. How do you address this?

4. You mentioned elsewhere that Horus has become some type of three in one deity that is no longer bonded with Set. Could you elaborate on this?

 

[Octavia156]

"Civilization is crumbling under our eyes and I believe that the best chance of saving what little is worth saving, and rebuilding the Temple of the Holy Ghost on plans, and with material and workmanship, which shall be free from the errors of the former, lies with the O.T.O."
Aleister Crowley, The Confessions

Is it true that every member of O.T.O. is required to introduce the organization to his/her friends and to people in high positions in society, because the ultimate intent of O.T.O. to have the ruling position in every country? If spreading O.T.O. influence is one of ultimate goals, do you find that O.T.O. is successful or failed?
Is O.T.O. now on the lowest point since the beginning, considering number of new members (do you have a significant number of new members?) and no growth in high degrees?
Did A.C. wanted to reach the world domination by O.T.O. organization? If that was his intention is a general "failure" present situation of O.T.O.?
If I just look at RF, it seems to me that I am the only one who has some interest in your OP?

You are confusing OTO with Thelema.

OTO is not for everyone - though everyone has a right to take the MoE degrees.
OTO is Thelemic freemasonry, and unless you are conspiracy theorist the notion that we seek some kind of world domination is totally ridiculous.

AC wanted OTO to be a tool to help people learn how to apply Thelema best into their daily lives and practises. That's what the initiations do, they aim to show you how you can be a better, more efficient and conscious individual.

The OTO is not failing. In 2015 saw the chartering of 2 more Grand Lodges and many more high degree initiations/positions. Our membership is fairly stable. Progression takes time and peoples lives get busy so there's a natural ebb and flow, but certainly we're at the highest point ever I'd Imagine (not got actual figures) we're not evangelical, we're quite content with what we have

 

[Octavia156]

93

1. What do you think of The Comment? We know Crowley only added it when the initiatory system was questioned, his rank included. I mean, the initiatory system was pre-aeon, and therefore a black religion of old. Crowley even took away the ability for individual thought on the subject, allowing only for his own thoughts. Isn't this all just a bit... Discrediting?

You may to clarify what you mean in some bits, but I'll so my best to answer.

Some refernces first:
(I:36). My scribe Ankh-af-na-khonsu, the priest of the princes, shall not in one letter change this book; but lest there be folly, he shall comment thereupon by the wisdom of Ra-Hoor-Khuit
(III:39) thy comment upon this the Book of the Law shall be printed beautifully
(III:40). But the work of the comment? That is easy; and Hadit burning in thy heart shall make swift and secure thy pen.
(III:63). The fool readeth this Book of the Law, and its comment; & he understandeth it not.


The Comment, for me, is a stroke of genius.
"Those who discuss the contents of this Book are to be shunned by all, as centres of pestilence."

Unlike any other religions that has come before, the comment specifically instructs that people should not debate its content and meaning.
So many of the major problems of organised religion today and throughout history have been a result of "the learned/the priesthood etc assuming authority of its meaning and presuming to have an authority on such.
Wars and oppression, and now radicalism have resulted from this. The Comment implies that anyone who attempts to interpret it and tell other people what is means should be shunned. Its up to the individual to understand it - and their gnosis is no less valid thatanyone elses.

At the timeof writing. AC found the book very disturbing. He threw it in a cupbaord for many years almost in fear of it.
When he came to take over the OTO he decided to take Freemasony and replace its Old Aeon Judeo-Christian theme and replace with the New Aeon system of Thelema (a mammoth task) To do this he needed to ressurect Liber AL (as freemasonary requires a VSL (volume of sacred law) and therefore he had to face what the book instructed him to do - write the Comment.

I dont undertsnad your point about individual thought or discrediation so cant answer this.

2. In that same vein, we know Crowley added and changed the Book of the Law, despite being told by the Speaker not to change a single letter. He added in poetry, seeped it in golden dawn mythology, and of course added the comment. How does this effect the text and the religion of Crowley?

You need to give examples of where he changed things. Every book of the law has the original manuscript printed. I assume you are referring to the poems added in Chapter 3 vs 37 and 38. You can see from the manuscript there is a clear noition implying a sort of "insert here".
Given he was only given one hour to write each chapter its understandable that these poems were instructed to be added, but there was no need for their dication there at the time. I know of no other places anything has "changed" though please enlighten me if you find something.

3. In some of his writing, Crowley associated the Speaker with Set, claiming it was his oldest, Sumerian form. You said elsewhere that Set plays no role in Thelema, but if we can only appeal to Crowley's writings then that seems to be incorrect. How do you address this?

Sorry - I need a reference to answer this question. I've not come across this. In all my career in OTO Set has only been mentioned alongside a list of composite deities in a partcular ritual. Set is not mentioned in the book of the Law anywhere.

4. You mentioned elsewhere that Horus has become some type of three in one deity that is no longer bonded with Set. Could you elaborate on this?

Yes The old Aeon god or Horus (as I guess if you see Set as an important aspect of Horus) has indeed involed into 3 distinct, emanations or "personallities" if you will - all relevant and imporant aspects of the ruler of this New Aeon

Ra-Hoor-Kuit - the God of War and Venegence
Hoor-par-Krat - The Crowned and Conquering Child
Harpocrates - The Lord of Silence.

93,93/93

 

[Covellite]

You are confusing OTO with Thelema.

I certainly do. I will do more researches on that subject.

 

[Covellite]

Not so long ago ( in the 80's and the 90's), pop culture, especially in a music field, like The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Doors, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Iron Maiden and many others who used to have a great audience openly promoted A.C. and Thelema and there was nothing wrong with that. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that time has changed. In recent times, when some celebrity (maybe even unintentionally) perform even a hand gesture that could be connected to A.C. it becomes a scandal. Maybe my comment is superficial, but definitely things are different and A.C. is even more "wicked" then ever before.

 

[Covellite]

Did Crowley have a goal of battling Christianity with black magick?
Since you said, as a member of OTO, that you are questioning everything he said, I have to ask you, is that goal still one of OTO's goals?

 

[Octavia156]

Did Crowley have a goal of battling Christianity with black magick?
Since you said, as a member of OTO, that you are questioning everything he said, I have to ask you, is that goal still one of OTO's goals?

Crowley almost hada vendetta against Christianity. He really really disliked it and religions like it. Thelema is about taking personal responsibility for ones actions, not being told what is right and wrong by some religion. Guilt and original sin.... urg. Chastity urg...
He believed in Freedom, and freedom from religious dogma.

Battling with black magick? You need to define black magick - but however you define it I'd say the answer is NO.

The goal of OTO isto secure the Liberty of the Individual and his or her advancement in Light, Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge and Power. This is accomplished through Beauty, Courage and Wit, on the Foundation of Universal Brotherhood.

When I say I question everything I mean I ask "Is this action in accordance with my True Will". My True WIll is nothing like Crowleys, so thats why I'd question anything and everything, just like with everyone else

 

[Octavia156]

Not so long ago ( in the 80's and the 90's), pop culture, especially in a music field, like The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Doors, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Iron Maiden and many others who used to have a great audience openly promoted A.C. and Thelema and there was nothing wrong with that. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that time has changed. In recent times, when some celebrity (maybe even unintentionally) perform even a hand gesture that could be connected to A.C. it becomes a scandal. Maybe my comment is superficial, but definitely things are different and A.C. is even more "wicked" then ever before.

Every generation is different. Now the kids are all into the Illuminati and think Jay-Z and Rhianna are part of some new world order. Its all just ignorance and entertainment.

The Beatles et al promoted AC as it safe to argue that if it wasn't for him the 60s revolution might never have happened. He paved the way for so much.#

I dont think hes considered any more wicked than he was before... maybe less so

 

[Covellite]

Why some of long-time high-ranking members called for the resignation of upper management and stepped down from all managerial duties in protest? What was the nature of there's protests? Any truth behind?

 

[Octavia156]

Why some of long-time high-ranking members called for the resignation of upper management and stepped down from all managerial duties in protest? What was the nature of there's protests? Any truth behind?

what situation are you talking about?

 

[Covellite]

what situation are you talking about?

Let's say about Allen H. Greenfield.

 

[1137]

@Octavia156

Some refernces first:
(I:36). My scribe Ankh-af-na-khonsu, the priest of the princes, shall not in one letter change this book; but lest there be folly, he shall comment thereupon by the wisdom of Ra-Hoor-Khuit
(III:39) thy comment upon this the Book of the Law shall be printed beautifully
(III:40). But the work of the comment? That is easy; and Hadit burning in thy heart shall make swift and secure thy pen.
(III:63). The fool readeth this Book of the Law, and its comment; & he understandeth it not.


The Comment, for me, is a stroke of genius.
"Those who discuss the contents of this Book are to be shunned by all, as centres of pestilence."

Unlike any other religions that has come before, the comment specifically instructs that people should not debate its content and meaning.
So many of the major problems of organised religion today and throughout history have been a result of "the learned/the priesthood etc assuming authority of its meaning and presuming to have an authority on such.
Wars and oppression, and now radicalism have resulted from this. The Comment implies that anyone who attempts to interpret it and tell other people what is means should be shunned. Its up to the individual to understand it - and their gnosis is no less valid thatanyone elses.

At the timeof writing. AC found the book very disturbing. He threw it in a cupbaord for many years almost in fear of it.
When he came to take over the OTO he decided to take Freemasony and replace its Old Aeon Judeo-Christian theme and replace with the New Aeon system of Thelema (a mammoth task) To do this he needed to ressurect Liber AL (as freemasonary requires a VSL (volume of sacred law) and therefore he had to face what the book instructed him to do - write the Comment.

I dont undertsnad your point about individual thought or discrediation so cant answer this.

You need to give examples of where he changed things. Every book of the law has the original manuscript printed. I assume you are referring to the poems added in Chapter 3 vs 37 and 38. You can see from the manuscript there is a clear noition implying a sort of "insert here".
Given he was only given one hour to write each chapter its understandable that these poems were instructed to be added, but there was no need for their dication there at the time. I know of no other places anything has "changed" though please enlighten me if you find something.

The problem with this is that AL encourages thelemites to fight as kings and brothers, like chess. Crowley's comment contradicts this. As for the poetry, whether there was an "insert here" or not, the speakers say, repeatedly, not to change or add anything - a strange oversight. Other examples include the insertion of straight golden dawn ideology, such as I:49. It strips individuality from practitioners because they only have one external source - Crowley. This is like only having one scientific journal that's considered reliable and is owned by creationists.

Sorry - I need a reference to answer this question. I've not come across this. In all my career in OTO Set has only been mentioned alongside a list of composite deities in a partcular ritual. Set is not mentioned in the book of the Law anywhere.

The Set-Horus current, Aiwass as a Sumerian god, and all that is in Equinox of the Gods, as far as I remember. You're probably more well versed than I. Further, Set is called a twin to Horus, and Set plays a central role in the Gnostic mass. How is all this addressed?