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Am I the Only One Who Sees Value in "New Atheism"?

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Let me be upfront about something: I recognize that some of the major figures of "New Atheism" (quotes because I don't believe it is new at all) have made some irrational, scaremongering, and hyperbolic comments before, among other things—Sam Harris, my favorite intellectual out of all of the "Four Horsemen," has made some fatally mistaken and hyperbolic statements before ,for example. I also know that some of them have made blanket generalizations in negative ways more than once.

That said, I can see a lot of value in the movement. For all of its faults, I have never heard any of the famous New Atheists say something like "all believers will go to Hell" or "we should outlaw religious belief." These kinds of statements are par for the course for millions of religious believers in many parts of the world, yet for how much demonization has been directed at the major figures of New Atheism, I have never heard or read statements like those coming from them.

Furthermore, let's get real here: the spread of heavily proselytizing and dogmatic religions like Islam and Evangelical Christianity is not going to simply be countered by sitting at home and saying, "No, we are not going to oppose religion because that's an intolerant thing to do." Aside from the fact that there is a huge difference between rejecting religions and rejecting people, some dogmas are harmful and need to be countered in ways that may well be politically incorrect and combative in the eyes of some people. That's a necessary evil, if we can even call it an "evil."

What do you think? Am I the only one who sees so much value in New Atheism?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The movement, sure. The label, not so. It is not to anyone's benefit to brand their ideas as if they were particularly noteworthy or contrasting with "regular" atheism.

That they all go above and beyond atheism proper goes without saying. So does any other atheist.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
There is no 'counter' to religion, aside from other religion. Most people are theists. There is no indication that atheism, in any form, is going to be able to compete against theism/s/
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Many religions can be dogmatic, aside from Christianity and Islam.
/Judaism
/Hinduism
/Atheism
/various religious groups not in these categories

Atheism is not a religion though.

To your OP question, yes you might be the only one.

new atheism is a failed religion, if you want to put on the robe of it's theology, that is, however, your prerogative.

I'm certain I'm not the only one on the Internet and elsewhere; however, I'm interested to see how many people on RF share my view.

Besides, New Atheism doesn't have a theology because, just like "old" atheism (the term "New" Atheism is misleading), it is not a religion.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
What do you think?
Things like combatting the errors of fundamentalist Islam and Christianity are things many theists (pantheist) like myself are on-board with too. I dislike 'New Atheism' because of their implied dislike of more intelligent and sophisticated types of spiritual beliefs that they do not seem to address except to try to lump it all in one basket.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Things like combatting the errors of fundamentalist Islam and Christianity are things many theists (pantheist) like myself are on-board with too. I dislike 'New Atheism' because of their implied dislike of more intelligent and sophisticated types of spiritual beliefs that they do not seem to address except to try to lump it all in one basket.

Sam Harris actually has a whole book, Waking Up, subtitled A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion.

I think an argument could be made that major "New Atheists" overlook Paganism and polytheism in general, though. Many of their arguments don't apply to Paganism or polytheism and are instead primarily targeted at monotheism, especially Abrahamic monotheism. That's kind of understandable given the sheer volume of the population who are Abrahamic monotheists, but it doesn't justify overlooking the very existence of other forms of theism.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
There is no 'counter' to religion, aside from other religion. Most people are theists. There is no indication that atheism, in any form, is going to be able to compete against theism/s/
History, logic and common sense all show otherwise.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Atheism is not a religion though.



I'm certain I'm not the only one on the Internet and elsewhere; however, I'm interested to see how many people on RF share my view.

Besides, New Atheism doesn't have a theology because, just like "old" atheism (the term "New" Atheism is misleading), it is not a religion.

I would classify it as a religion. If you don't, then I might not have a religion either, even though I think that I do. New atheists are certainly dogmatic enough to compete in that regard, with any religion. You can't compare apples and oranges here, ie subsets of religions, with an whole label, 'new atheism', if that makes sense. Because ''new atheism'', isn't ''atheism''; it just uses a parallel word description.
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Sam Harris actually has a whole book, Waking Up, subtitled A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion.
How does that square with being an 'atheist' unless all the spirituality he is talking about still comes under the umbrella of 'materialism' which then in that case I would agree with Richard Dawkins in just calling it 'sexed-up atheism' and not something I would consider 'spirituality'.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
How does that square with being an 'atheist' unless all the spirituality he is talking about still comes under the umbrella of 'materialism' which then in that case I would agree with Richard Dawkins in just calling it 'sexed-up atheism' and not something I would consider 'spirituality'.
It all comes down to what one expects of belief in God and what one expects of oneself and of existence.
 

RRex

Active Member
Premium Member
I don't believe it is new at all
I agree. All that's really happened is it's got a new face(s).

Regrettably, atheists are still very militant, which does nothing to advance the cause.

While I'm a Deist now, I still cling to my atheism and the militancy of decades of trying to defend my position. I lost my career to theists who opposed me in the mid-80's. The US was not yet ready to accept disbelief in God.

Militancy is a difficult animal to tame, but I believe if atheism wants to advance we've all got to try to be more diplomatic and less confrontational. Stop going after Nativity scenes, the Ten Commandments, and "In God We Trust". It's petty.

These new faces of atheism in the media are pretty diplomatic. Atheists should embrace their model.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I would classify it as a religion. If you don't, then I might not have a religion either, even though I think that I do. New atheists are certainly dogmatic enough to compete in that regard, with any religion. You can't compare apples and oranges here, ie subsets of religions, with an whole label, 'new atheism', if that makes sense. Because ''new atheism'', isn't ''atheism''; it just uses a parallel word description. Same way that I'm not ''Presbyterian', even though I might share some beliefs.

What is this supposed dogma of New Atheism, then? Mind sharing some of its core aspects since you are so sure that New Atheism is a religion?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
It all comes down to what one expects of belief in God and what one expects of oneself and of existence.
I think it all comes down to if whether we think that all of existence is just material or that there is something more than the material (i.e. consciousness is not physical but fundamental) .
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree. All that's really happened is it's got a new face(s).

Regrettably, atheists are still very militant, which does nothing to advance the cause.

Tell me just one theological statement that many atheists make that is more militant than "you will spend an eternity in Hell being tortured by God for not believing in him" and I will believe you that the "militancy" of atheists is a bad thing, if it even exists at large.

While I'm a Deist now, I still cling to my atheism and the militancy of decades of trying to defend my position. I lost my career to theists who opposed me in the mid-80's. The US was not yet ready to accept disbelief in God.

Militancy is a difficult animal to tame, but I believe if atheism wants to advance we've all got to try to be more diplomatic and less confrontational. Stop going after Nativity scenes, the Ten Commandments, and "In God We Trust". It's petty.

These new faces of atheism in the media are pretty diplomatic. Atheists should embrace their model.

Rational and logical discourse, no matter how "militant" it might seem, is the best remedy for the harms of outdated dogma, in my opinion.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
How does that square with being an 'atheist' unless all the spirituality he is talking about still comes under the umbrella of 'materialism' which then in that case I would agree with Richard Dawkins in just calling it 'sexed-up atheism' and not something I would consider 'spirituality'.

Spirituality is not mutually exclusive with atheism unless you define spirituality as "an implication of belief in a deity or deities." Not everyone defines it like that. Belief in a deity or deities is not necessary to appreciate meditation and its positive effects on human well-being, for example.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think it is. I just read the definition of religion.

Close but no cigar. Faith and belief in God are involved, so no.

You took my post out of context. I was responding to someone who said New Atheism was a religion. I don't believe it is myself.
 
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