Alternative Viewpoints on Jesus

[Rainbow Mage]

Okay, so we all know the Christian view of Jesus- that he was god in the flesh, born of a virgin, died for sin, rose from the dead, etc. What about differing views of Jesus? Does anyone have their own view of who Jesus was or is they'd like to share? I'll start first.

I believe that Jesus was an ordinary human being, born to Mary and Joseph. I believe he grew up and learned things in his life that led him to some enlightened conclusions about the nature of life. I believe he taught some things based on these conclusions of his, and ultimately was killed by the Romans because the Romans killed any religious reformer in that time, many were killed. I do not believe in the virgin birth, I hold it to be a myth of Christian origin, not unlike other myths that other cultures made. I don't believe in the ressurection either, because in my world view regarding the nature of the flesh and the spirit, there'd be no need for a ressurection.

 

[ragordon168]

from my POV i aggree that jesus was no spiritual being, he was just a man who did great thing in his life. from what i was taught jesus only became the son of god because of constantine wanting political power, before that jesus was just a spiritual leader.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

This thread simply denotes a conspiracy among those authors of the New Testament to say otherwise. Welcome to the debate...

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well maybe some of us just have different views of Jesus then Christianity presents, and we'd like to express them.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Wel there are a few Gnostic views of Jesus...

the docetic view, where Jesus was a spectre....

and several others.

To many Gnostics Jesus is/was an aeon and is the literal other half of Sophia.

The Mandaeans of course if we look at their texts and not WIKI, consider him to be Hi-bil Ziwa

I tend to see Jesus as an expression and reincarnation of adam cadmon and as such the 3rd Seth.

..............

Jesus" is a hidden name, "Christ" is a revealed name. For this reason "Jesus" is not particular to any language; rather he is always called by the name "Jesus". While as for "Christ", in Syriac it is "Messiah", in Greek it is "Christ". Certainly all the others have it according to their own language. "The Nazarene" is he who reveals what is hidden. Christ has everything in himself, whether man, or angel, or mystery, and the Father.

Jesus took them all by stealth, for he did not appear as he was, but in the manner in which they would be able to see him. He appeared to them all. He appeared to the great as great. He appeared to the small as small. He appeared to the angels as an angel, and to men as a man. Because of this, his word hid itself from everyone. Some indeed saw him, thinking that they were seeing themselves, but when he appeared to his disciples in glory on the mount, he was not small. He became great, but he made the disciples great, that they might be able to see him in his greatness.

--gospel of Philip

“His name is Amun-el and he called himself Y’su Mashiana (Yeshu messiah). He appears to you and says to you: ‘Come and stand beside me and you shall not be burned…He says: ‘ I am Alaha (‘God&#8217, I have been sent here by my father’. And he further says to you: ‘I am the first messenger, I am Hibil-Ziwa I have come from the great heights”

–Ginza Rba, the great treasury

Jesus was known as Jesus the Nazorean. He was called the Nazorean because the customs and practices of the Nazoreans were a significant part of His message and teachings. By carefully studying ancient historians, modern anthropologists and seers who have spoken of these Nazoreans, we can reconstruct many ancient Nazorean customs and traditions which formed such a significant part of the original Message of Jesus. By acquainting ourselves with the ancient Nazorean Way we place ourselves in a position to truly keep the commandment of “Jesus the Nazorean” when He said: “Follow Me.”
Nazirutha is the Mandaean/Aramaic name for Nazorean Gnosis. Those among the Mandaeans who possess secret knowledge are called Nazuraiia, or Nazoreans. The less enlightened lay Mandeaeans are called Mandaiia, meaning “gnostics”. True enlightenment, however, is considered very rare and is called Nazirutha. Below is a summary of Nazirutha doctrine according to the Mandaean scholar E.S. Drower

“He shall be called a Nazarene.” « Prayers and Reflections

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well what about the view that the man Jesus was only the container of the Christ within? Or the idea that Christ is within all living things, like Buddhists believe the Buddha is within all waiting to be awakened?

 

[Mr Cheese]

Well what about the view that the man Jesus was only the container of the Christ within? Or the idea that Christ is within all living things, like Buddhists believe the Buddha is within all waiting to be awakened?

I tend to follow the view that Christ is the Tao...
everything

the union of all opposites

now some say Jesus channeled Christ...frankly this is a bit silly...this is Jesus the super hero...that put on a special decoder ring to save the day.

From my persective Jesus was always the christ...

all things have buddha nature

Of course we do find this sentiment withing the more esoteric views of exoteric christianity, in the likes of Eckhart for example...and others, I think Merton can be good here

 

[Rainbow Mage]

So in Jesus saying he was Christ, was he also saying everything else is Christ? What do you make of Paul's idea on it?- "Christ is all and in all"

 

[Mr Cheese]

So in Jesus saying he was Christ, was he also saying everything else is Christ? What do you make of Paul's idea on it?- "Christ is all and in all"

I guess from that description i would agree...

I would be hesitant though...

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well, or could it be that one would then view Christ, Panentheistically? Meaning that Christ is in all and above all at the same time?

 

[Mr Cheese]

Well, or could it be that one would then view Christ, Panentheistically? Meaning that Christ is in all and above all at the same time?

sure....

but as a Gnostic we would go beyond this and employ the term Ineffable....

but we can consider my oft quoted piece by LeLoup:

If I were to say ‘I know God’, I would be a liar. God is beyond comprehension. Better to be silent and live in humility. If I were to say, ‘I do not know God’, I would also be a liar.

— Jean-Yves Leloup, Being Still: Reflections on an Ancient Mystical Tradition​

It is here where outsiders, atheists and those stuck in exoteric though come a cropper...as they ae not able to deal with the reality of mysticism that is seemingly contradictory....​

Arguably the most famous Gnostic example being thunder the perfect mind:​

I am she whose wedding is great,
and I have not taken a husband.
I am the midwife and she who does not bear.
I am the solace of my labor pains.
I am the bride and the bridegroom,
and it is my husband who begot me.
I am the mother of my father and
the sister of my husband and he is my offspring.
I am the slave of him who prepared me.
I am the ruler of my offspring.
But he is the one who begot me before the time on a birthday.
And he is my offspring in (due) time, and my power is from him.
I am the staff of his power in his youth,
and he is the rod of my old age.
And whatever he wills happens to me.
I am the silence that is incomprehensible and the idea whose remembrance is frequent.
I am the voice whose sound is manifold and
the word whose appearance is multiple.
I am the utterance of my name.


of course perhaps one of the earliest Gnostic symbols is the ankh....

 

[Rainbow Mage]

So Gnostics do believe Jesus is God then? Like Christians do?

 

[Mr Cheese]

So Gnostics do believe Jesus is God then? Like Christians do?

some do....
some don't

there are many groups that can be seen under the name Gnostic...both modern an ancient

but then Gnostic often have problems with the name God:

Light and Darkness, life and death, right and left, are brothers of one another. They are inseparable. Because of this neither are the good good, nor evil evil, nor is life life, nor death death. For this reason each one will dissolve into its earliest origin. But those who are exalted above the world are indissoluble, eternal.

Names given to the worldly are very deceptive, for they divert our thoughts from what is correct to what is incorrect. Thus one who hears the word "God" does not perceive what is correct, but perceives what is incorrect. So also with "the Father" and "the Son" and "the Holy Spirit" and "life" and "light" and "resurrection" and "the Church (Ekklesia)" and all the rest - people do not perceive what is correct but they perceive what is incorrect, unless they have come to know what is correct. The names which are heard are in the world [...] deceive. If they were in the Aeon (eternal realm), they would at no time be used as names in the world. Nor were they set among worldly things. They have an end in the Aeon.

One single name is not uttered in the world, the name which the Father gave to the Son; it is the name above all things: the name of the Father. For the Son would not become Father unless he wore the name of the Father. Those who have this name know it, but they do not speak it. But those who do not have it do not know it.

But truth brought names into existence in the world for our sakes, because it is not possible to learn it (truth) without these names. Truth is one single thing; it is many things and for our sakes to teach about this one thing in love through many things. The rulers (archons) wanted to deceive man, since they saw that he had a kinship with those that are truly good. They took the name of those that are good and gave it to those that are not good, so that through the names they might deceive him and bind them to those that are not good. And afterward, what a favor they do for them! They make them be removed from those that are not good and place them among those that are good. These things they knew, for they wanted to take the free man and make him a slave to them forever.

--Gospel of Philip

 

[Rainbow Mage]

What about the virgin birth? Anyone's thoughts on that? Happened? Didn't happen?

 

[Mr Cheese]

now this gets tricky as regards the virgin birth...here again is many ideas....

from an esoteric perspective of course, the word virgin has far greater connotations than hymens... generally it means complete..we can see this easily by examining the astrological sign Virgo..... I use thisas an example as it is an easy thing anyone can simply google and examine.

A virgin would be someone who has united opposites....

then of course there are other esoteric ideas such as eugenics...

but anyway

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

In the Baha'i view, Jesus in indeed Who He said He was, and further, the Christ Spirit has already returned (about a century and a half ago) with the new name that both the Jewish and Christian scriptures prophesied for Him!

Further information is available at: bahai.org and bahai.us

Best regards,

Bruce

 

[no-body]

The common new age view is that Jesus was a Bodhisattva; a great philosopher whom found "Christ consciousness" or Buddhahood, something that is available to everyone right here, now. But he was not God, nor divine, just an enlightened man whose words where hijacked by others to create a new religion from many others. Some believe that the "missing years" of Jesus where spent in the east learning from the eastern religions.

The mainstream Christian view of Jesus makes little sense to me. The insistence that God is 100% man and 100% God is an absurd paradox that makes no sense logically or spiritually. If this Christ died on the cross He died knowing He was God, so it seems like a pointless sacrifice.

 

[Mr Cheese]

The common new age view is that Jesus was a Bodhisattva; a great philosopher whom found "Christ consciousness" or Buddhahood, something that is available to everyone right here, now. But he was not God, nor divine, just an enlightened man whose words where hijacked by others to create a new religion from many others. Some believe that the "missing years" of Jesus where spent in the east learning from the eastern religions.

Yes, Jesus as mighty mouse

here to save the day

 

[Mr Cheese]

The mainstream Christian view of Jesus makes little sense to me. The insistence that God is 100% man and 100% God is an absurd paradox that makes no sense logically or spiritually. If this Christ died on the cross He died knowing He was God, so it seems like a pointless sacrifice.

paradox is just that...something that questions conventional mundane logic

how can matter at quantum level be a particle and a wave?
how can matter at a quantum level have a measurable velocity but not a location?

logic smogic....

 

[no-body]

paradox is just that...something that questions conventional mundane logic

how can matter at quantum level be a particle and a wave?
how can matter at a quantum level have a measurable velocity but not a location?

logic smogic....

Could God microwave a burrito so hot not even he himself could eat it?