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All roads lead to the same God ?

joelr

Well-Known Member
Are you being serious ? Any one can access the materials on the Internet ( on your phone ) Bible hub , Olive tree , blue letter bible, lexicon , Just click on the verse and you can compare the greek ( interlinear)

This is bizarre? The biblical historicity field as well as biblical archeology and comparative religion/mythology is an excellent way to learn about religions. No one person can do this on their own? There are fields with consensus work, peer-reviewed to study and gain knowledge?

There is far far more to the biblical text, sources they drew from and so on to learn from scholarship? What point are you trying to make?
Sounds like you know archeology and historicity debunk the Bible so you are completely against it.

On the flip side, you don't go to Bible study, or read apologetics?

And no, you cannot know which Greek words were more common in those times or count how many times Paul uses "brother" and which times he's using biological brother and which times he's using brother in the lord?
You can, or you can learn it from a biblical scholar?
I have no idea what your point is? Don't learn stuff?

Scripture is 4 gospels put together out of almost 40 gospels, Christianity was completely divided in the 2nd century among many radically different sects. The Dead Sea scrolls and letters from Bishop Ignateus shed some light on this period. Which can all be found in Elaine Pagels Gnostic Gospels.

Or, you can assemble them yourself, all the fragments, learn the languages, find the letters from the Bishop.....
 

KerimF

Active Member
But how do you know it's a truth beyond the great golden rules? It sounds a lot like Hillilite wisdom?
It's all in Hindu Vedic wisdom as well.

Sorry, but if any living thing can talk, other than human, it would tell me for sure that loving enemies and not opposing evil is like Hillilite wisdom. The reason is very simple. ALL living things are supposed to be guided by their instincts (the instructions that are embedded by their Creator in their living flesh). Since humans are evolved from animals, it is natural that whoever (a human) has a living flesh only has no choice but to be also guided by his instincts of survival (the Golden Rule).

Anyway, thank you for mentioning a possible reference; the 'Hindu Vedic'. I will search about it on the internet.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Do you think its likely that skeptical 'scholars ' are going to take miracles seriously? Hands up anyone ?

They will apply the needed amount of skepticism. Same we apply to Hindu miracles and ufo stories. Your Bible is not special, it gets the same amount of evidentary standards or we will be led to believe fiction, like so many religions and cults.



Are you so naive to think 'scholars ', unbelieving Scholars, who do not believe there is a God , let alone claims , of a virgin birth , walking on water , healing the blind, the deaf and mute , water into wine, raising the dead , casting out demons, and rising from the dead three days after being buried in a tomb, claiming to have come from heaven , the Son of God , eternally existing, saying he's the only way for the whole of mankind to recieve salvation from the wrath to come upon the earth . Let alone accounts of speaking Creation into existence creating man from the dust of the ground , a woman from his rib , talking serpent , The fall, people living for over 900 years , The Ark , the world wide Flood , the plagues in Egypt, parting the sea , talking burning Bush, David and Goliath ?
How do unbelieving scholars view the bible? Seriously? with belief ? credibility? Trust ? An open mind lol ?
No but scholars get show that all of those myths are not from Christianity/Judaism.. Creation stories, heaven, Satan as Gods enemy, souls, resurrection are not from Judaism but from Persian and Hellenistic sources.

Bart Ehrman was a fundamentalist Christian. After he studied he realized it was all mythology.
Carrier was open to belief but realized these were myths.
Joseph Campbell also realized savior gods and all those miracles are standard among myths.

Most of the other things you just mentioned are Mesopotamian and Persian myths which pre-date Christianity and Judaism. You don't know this because you don't study anything but the Bible. Hence you think it all started with the Bible and believe myths are real.

scholarship is also able to point out where the narratives are coming from giving further evidence that these stories are made up and not oral tradition. In some cases line by line copying of older stories. Luke is the most guilty of this.
Acts has been demonstrated beyond a doubt to be a travel narrative taken from Homer. I am open to good evidence as any scholar might be, there simply isn't any. But massive evidence of mythology.




" Oh the only reason I don't trust the men who wrote the Gospels , is because if you look at the narrative , with the indexing, and the over use of the syntax, and the greek overlay with the form of punctuation, you will see that the writer really is reacting from a early source that we know from the accounts we find in the narrative of the chromosome ,and we looked under the microscope and we found a smudge on the ink and we analysed the findings with the leading linguistc expert and he said that with the contradicting comparison when we put the sample through the microwave we found that the bible is a false "
Hogwash!! Wake up and smell the book sales .
like any of that is the reason' Scholars' reject the narrative or even approach the bible with any sense of it being true to begin with.

Sorry, appeal to popularity isn't even remotely a reason to believe something is true. Between Islam, Hindu and Judaism there are far more people who (according to your beliefs) believe myths. So therefore it's totally possible for large numbers of people to believe in fiction.

YOur strawman assesment of how the Bible is analyzed was sad. You have no idea of what's going on in the real world.
Here is a link to a Christian source Bible.com and how Christian scholars use 7 arguments to show Mark is the source gospel. Up to 98% of Mark in in Matthew verbatim. Matthew copied Mark and added his theology. This is how we learn. YOur stone age approach explains why you still believe myths.
The Synoptic Problem | Bible.org



Here is a simple article on how Mark used Paul. Also gives the leading scholarship.
Please point out where he speaks nonsense about ink and chromasomes, or debunk some examples. You said you can do it on your own. Please, go for it.

Mark's Use of Paul's Epistles • Richard Carrier
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but if any living thing can talk, other than human, it would tell me for sure that loving enemies and not opposing evil is like Hillilite wisdom. The reason is very simple. ALL living things are supposed to be guided by their instincts (the instructions that are embedded by their Creator in their living flesh). Since humans are evolved from animals, it is natural that whoever (a human) has a living flesh only has no choice but to be also guided by his instincts of survival (the Golden Rule).

Anyway, thank you for mentioning a possible reference; the 'Hindu Vedic'. I will search about it on the internet.


Yes but you assume they were embedded by a creator and not part of evolution. There is no evidence of a creator or that instincts are put there and if there were that the creator would be Yahweh is unlikely.
 

John1.12

Free gift
This is bizarre? The biblical historicity field as well as biblical archeology and comparative religion/mythology is an excellent way to learn about religions. No one person can do this on their own? There are fields with consensus work, peer-reviewed to study and gain knowledge?

There is far far more to the biblical text, sources they drew from and so on to learn from scholarship? What point are you trying to make?
Sounds like you know archeology and historicity debunk the Bible so you are completely against it.

On the flip side, you don't go to Bible study, or read apologetics?

And no, you cannot know which Greek words were more common in those times or count how many times Paul uses "brother" and which times he's using biological brother and which times he's using brother in the lord?
You can, or you can learn it from a biblical scholar?
I have no idea what your point is? Don't learn stuff?

Scripture is 4 gospels put together out of almost 40 gospels, Christianity was completely divided in the 2nd century among many radically different sects. The Dead Sea scrolls and letters from Bishop Ignateus shed some light on this period. Which can all be found in Elaine Pagels Gnostic Gospels.

Or, you can assemble them yourself, all the fragments, learn the languages, find the letters from the Bishop.....
Your missing the point . I believe what the bible says .All of the nonsense gets debated over and over . There's ' scholars ' either side . Just reading the text yourself is all you need to do ultimately.
 

John1.12

Free gift
They will apply the needed amount of skepticism. Same we apply to Hindu miracles and ufo stories. Your Bible is not special, it gets the same amount of evidentary standards or we will be led to believe fiction, like so many religions and cults.




No but scholars get show that all of those myths are not from Christianity/Judaism.. Creation stories, heaven, Satan as Gods enemy, souls, resurrection are not from Judaism but from Persian and Hellenistic sources.

Bart Ehrman was a fundamentalist Christian. After he studied he realized it was all mythology.
Carrier was open to belief but realized these were myths.
Joseph Campbell also realized savior gods and all those miracles are standard among myths.

Most of the other things you just mentioned are Mesopotamian and Persian myths which pre-date Christianity and Judaism. You don't know this because you don't study anything but the Bible. Hence you think it all started with the Bible and believe myths are real.

scholarship is also able to point out where the narratives are coming from giving further evidence that these stories are made up and not oral tradition. In some cases line by line copying of older stories. Luke is the most guilty of this.
Acts has been demonstrated beyond a doubt to be a travel narrative taken from Homer. I am open to good evidence as any scholar might be, there simply isn't any. But massive evidence of mythology.






Sorry, appeal to popularity isn't even remotely a reason to believe something is true. Between Islam, Hindu and Judaism there are far more people who (according to your beliefs) believe myths. So therefore it's totally possible for large numbers of people to believe in fiction.

YOur strawman assesment of how the Bible is analyzed was sad. You have no idea of what's going on in the real world.
Here is a link to a Christian source Bible.com and how Christian scholars use 7 arguments to show Mark is the source gospel. Up to 98% of Mark in in Matthew verbatim. Matthew copied Mark and added his theology. This is how we learn. YOur stone age approach explains why you still believe myths.
The Synoptic Problem | Bible.org



Here is a simple article on how Mark used Paul. Also gives the leading scholarship.
Please point out where he speaks nonsense about ink and chromasomes, or debunk some examples. You said you can do it on your own. Please, go for it.

Mark's Use of Paul's Epistles • Richard Carrier
I spent nearly a year straight going through this before I believed . Its not necessary to go that far ,but for me that's what I did . I have continued to study this through . I've never heard a sensible argument against the bible since . I believe its true . But with that I welcome any challenge . If something is true it should with stand the scrutiny.
 

John1.12

Free gift
This is bizarre? The biblical historicity field as well as biblical archeology and comparative religion/mythology is an excellent way to learn about religions. No one person can do this on their own? There are fields with consensus work, peer-reviewed to study and gain knowledge?

There is far far more to the biblical text, sources they drew from and so on to learn from scholarship? What point are you trying to make?
Sounds like you know archeology and historicity debunk the Bible so you are completely against it.

On the flip side, you don't go to Bible study, or read apologetics?

And no, you cannot know which Greek words were more common in those times or count how many times Paul uses "brother" and which times he's using biological brother and which times he's using brother in the lord?
You can, or you can learn it from a biblical scholar?
I have no idea what your point is? Don't learn stuff?

Scripture is 4 gospels put together out of almost 40 gospels, Christianity was completely divided in the 2nd century among many radically different sects. The Dead Sea scrolls and letters from Bishop Ignateus shed some light on this period. Which can all be found in Elaine Pagels Gnostic Gospels.

Or, you can assemble them yourself, all the fragments, learn the languages, find the letters from the Bishop.....
//This is bizarre? The biblical historicity field as well as biblical archeology and comparative religion/mythology is an excellent way to learn about religions// I agree that these may be useful tools to' aid ' our investigation. I did this and like many, many others found the bible was proven true and to be trusted .You can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink .
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Your missing the point . I believe what the bible says .All of the nonsense gets debated over and over . There's ' scholars ' either side . Just reading the text yourself is all you need to do ultimately.


And people believe what Islam says, and Mormonism and Hinduism. There isn't scholars on either side. There are theologians and such who assume scripture is the word of God and there are historians who are almost completely in consensus. As well as archeologists.

The supernatural aspects of scripture are not considered true by historians. Thomas Thompson's work in the 70's demonstrated Moses and the Patriarchs were mythical. More and more assumptions are being shown to be false and apologists are considered pseudo-science:

From PhD carrier, biblical historian:
"
When the question of the historicity of Jesus comes up in an honest professional context, we are not asking whether the Gospel Jesus existed. All non-fundamentalist scholars agree that that Jesus never did exist. Christian apologetics is pseudo-history. No different than defending Atlantis. Or Moroni. Or women descending from Adam’s rib.

No. We aren’t interested in that.

When it comes to Jesus, just as with anyone else, real history is about trying to figure out what, if anything, we can really know about the man depicted in the New Testament (his actual life and teachings), through untold layers of distortion and mythmaking; and what, if anything, we can know about his role in starting the Christian movement that spread after his death. Consequently, I will here disregard fundamentalists and apologists as having no honest part in this debate, any more than they do on evolution or cosmology or anything else they cannot be honest about even to themselves."


All myths of the Bible can be shown to come from earlier nations, the gospels are anonymous and all copy Mark which uses Paul, Psalms and other OT. All this can be demonstrated. Pagan religions already had resurrecting savior gods (a Persian creation) who got members into the afterlife.
I can believe in any book but what does the evidence show?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I spent nearly a year straight going through this before I believed . Its not necessary to go that far ,but for me that's what I did . I have continued to study this through . I've never heard a sensible argument against the bible since . I believe its true . But with that I welcome any challenge . If something is true it should with stand the scrutiny.

I do not believe you honestly looked at historicity and archeology.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
//This is bizarre? The biblical historicity field as well as biblical archeology and comparative religion/mythology is an excellent way to learn about religions// I agree that these may be useful tools to' aid ' our investigation. I did this and like many, many others found the bible was proven true and to be trusted .You can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink .
Archeology does not prove the Bible is true?

Exodus - a national foundation myth, cities turn out to be small scale towns, Moses is a myth is now consensus of OT scholarship.
Israelites came from Egypt? Nope, archeologists show they came from Canaanites in a non-conquest fashion.
Goes on to explain early Israel worshipped Ashera as Yahwehs wife and polytheism was more common.

Archeology of the Hebrew Bible

William Dever, Professor Emeritus at the University of Arizona, has investigated the archeology of the ancient Near East for more than 30 years and authored almost as many books on the subject.

The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people.

We want to make the Bible history. Many people think it has to be history or nothing. But there is no word for history in the Hebrew Bible. In other words, what did the biblical writers think they were doing? Writing objective history? No. That's a modern discipline.

One of the first efforts of biblical archeology in the last century was to prove the historicity of the patriarchs, to locate them in a particular period in the archeological history. Today I think most archeologists would argue that there is no direct archeological proof that Abraham, for instance, ever lived.

The Bible chronology puts Moses much later in time, around 1450 B.C.E. Is there archeological evidence for Moses and the mass exodus of hundreds of thousands of Israelites described in the Bible?
We have no direct archeological evidence. "Moses" is an Egyptian name. Some of the other names in the narratives are Egyptian, and there are genuine Egyptian elements. But no one has found a text or an artifact in Egypt itself or even in the Sinai that has any direct connection. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. But I think it does mean what happened was rather more modest. And the biblical writers have enlarged the story.



Are there signs that the Israelites came in conquest, taking over the land from Canaanites?
The settlements were founded not on the ruins of destroyed Canaanite towns but rather on bedrock or on virgin soil. There was no evidence of armed conflict in most of these sites. Archeologists also have discovered that most of the large Canaanite towns that were supposedly destroyed by invading Israelites were either not destroyed at all or destroyed by "Sea People"—Philistines, or others.

So gradually the old conquest model [based on the accounts of Joshua's conquests in the Bible] began to lose favor amongst scholars. Many scholars now think that most of the early Israelites were originally Canaanites, displaced Canaanites, displaced from the lowlands, from the river valleys, displaced geographically and then displaced ideologically.


United Monarchy ---"Now, archeology can't either prove or disprove the stories. But I think most archeologists today would argue that the United Monarchy was not much more than a kind of hill-country chiefdom. It was very small-scale."



Exodus and Moses - myths:

Generally Moses is seen as a legendary figure, whilst retaining the possibility that Moses or a Moses-like figure existed in the 13th century BCE



Meyers: The Moses of the Bible is larger than life. The Moses of the Bible is a diplomat negotiating with the pharaoh; he is a lawgiver bringing the Ten Commandments, the Covenant, down from Sinai. The Moses of the Bible is a military man leading the Israelites in battles. He's the one who organizes Israel's judiciary. He's also the prophet par excellence and a quasi-priestly figure involved in offering sacrifices and setting up the priestly complex, the tabernacle. There's virtually nothing in terms of national leadership that Moses doesn't do. And, of course, he's also a person, a family man.

Now, no one individual could possibly have done all that. So the tales are a kind of aggrandizement. He is also associated with miracles—the memorable story of being found in a basket in the Nile and being saved, miraculously, to grow up in the pharaoh's household. And he dies somewhere in the mountains of Moab. Only God knows where he's buried; God is said to have buried him. This is highly unusual and, again, accords him a special place."
NOVA | The Bible's Buried Secrets | Moses and the Exodus | PBS


You and other scholars point out that there isn't evidence outside the Bible, in historic documents and the archeological record, for a mass migration from Egypt involving hundreds of thousands of people. But it may be plausible that there was a much smaller exodus, an exodus of people originally from the land of Canaan who were returning to it. Is that right? Meyers: Yes. Despite all the ways in which the exodus narratives in the Bible seem to be non-historic..


Where is archeology "proving the Bible"????
 

John1.12

Free gift
And people believe what Islam says, and Mormonism and Hinduism. There isn't scholars on either side. There are theologians and such who assume scripture is the word of God and there are historians who are almost completely in consensus. As well as archeologists.

The supernatural aspects of scripture are not considered true by historians. Thomas Thompson's work in the 70's demonstrated Moses and the Patriarchs were mythical. More and more assumptions are being shown to be false and apologists are considered pseudo-science:

From PhD carrier, biblical historian:
"
When the question of the historicity of Jesus comes up in an honest professional context, we are not asking whether the Gospel Jesus existed. All non-fundamentalist scholars agree that that Jesus never did exist. Christian apologetics is pseudo-history. No different than defending Atlantis. Or Moroni. Or women descending from Adam’s rib.

No. We aren’t interested in that.

When it comes to Jesus, just as with anyone else, real history is about trying to figure out what, if anything, we can really know about the man depicted in the New Testament (his actual life and teachings), through untold layers of distortion and mythmaking; and what, if anything, we can know about his role in starting the Christian movement that spread after his death. Consequently, I will here disregard fundamentalists and apologists as having no honest part in this debate, any more than they do on evolution or cosmology or anything else they cannot be honest about even to themselves."


All myths of the Bible can be shown to come from earlier nations, the gospels are anonymous and all copy Mark which uses Paul, Psalms and other OT. All this can be demonstrated. Pagan religions already had resurrecting savior gods (a Persian creation) who got members into the afterlife.
I can believe in any book but what does the evidence show?
Yes there are Scholars who believe in the bible, the Queen, The book of Mormon, The watchtower, Hinduism, Scientology , Eckhart Tolle, reincarnation, Aliens , UFO,s , dark Matter, multi universes , universalism , Buddhism, No God , Humanism, Wiccans, Druids , Satanism, Green peace, Animism , Conspiracy theories , Bill Gates, Oprah Winfrey, Astrology , " What goes around comes around , All gods are false, One God is true and on and on .
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
//This is bizarre? The biblical historicity field as well as biblical archeology and comparative religion/mythology is an excellent way to learn about religions// I agree that these may be useful tools to' aid ' our investigation. I did this and like many, many others found the bible was proven true and to be trusted .You can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink .

comparative myths?

2 creation stories and flood narrative mirror Mesopotamian myths

2nd temple Jewish myths:

The unique historical features of Zoroastrianism, such as its monotheism,[5][6][7][8][9] messianism, judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Greek philosophy,[10] Christianity, Islam,[11] the Baháʼí Faith, and Buddhism.
quote from Mary Boyce's book on Zoroastrianism page 29.

2nd Temple on afterlife:


"
Second Temple Judaism
During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[48] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[48] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[49][50] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[50] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[50] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[50] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[48] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]"


on Satan:

During the Second Temple Period, when Jews were living in the Achaemenid Empire, Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, the religion of the Achaemenids.[27][8][28] Jewish conceptions of Satan were impacted by Angra Mainyu,[8][29] the Zoroastrian god of evil, darkness, and ignorance.[8] In the Septuagint, the Hebrew ha-Satan in Job and Zechariah is translated by the Greek word diabolos (slanderer), the same word in the Greek New Testament from which the English word "devil" is derived.[30] Where satan is used to refer to human enemies in the Hebrew Bible, such as Hadad the Edomite and Rezon the Syrian, the word is left untranslated but transliterated in the Greek as satan, a neologism in Greek.[3


On NT stories, there are 6 dying/rising savior demigods who rose (sometimes on the 3rd day) who baptized members were saved (got into afterlife) and are confirmed to pre-date Jesus.

Scholar R Purvoe has a peer-reviewd word demonstrating Acts is fiction:
https://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Acts-Unraveling-Its-Story/dp/159815012X

and so on...
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Yes there are Scholars who believe in the bible, the Queen, The book of Mormon, The watchtower, Hinduism, Scientology , Eckhart Tolle, reincarnation, Aliens , UFO,s , dark Matter, multi universes , universalism , Buddhism, No God , Humanism, Wiccans, Druids , Satanism, Green peace, Animism , Conspiracy theories , Bill Gates, Oprah Winfrey, Astrology , " What goes around comes around , All gods are false, One God is true and on and on .



-I know of no historian who believes the Biblical mythology
-The Queen is a real person
-Mormonism, nope no historian
- Hindu, Tolle, Scientology, Aliens, ufo "ibid"
-Dark Matter - many cosmologists have good evidence for this
-witch stuff same as religion
- Green Peace - is real
- All Gods are false - cannot be proven
-One true God - no good evidence

Sorry, no historians are backing biblical myths. Theologians start by assuming they are studying Gods words. Not interested in pre-suppositions. Interested in evaluating evidence.

As much as you seem to want to muddy the waters (common apologetic tactic) myths can be examined. Sources can be found, in fact there are many known Christian forgeries like the fake Epistles and the Josephus forgeries. We also know the 2nd century was full of bizarre Christian sects showing there was likely no one true story.
We can determine what is reasonable true.
 

Bree

Active Member
Some seem to object to the exclusive claims of Christianity. That the Gospel is the ONLY way ,that Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven ,that by believing that he died for all our sins , was buried and rose again . That this alone is the only option there is to heaven and eternal life .
But I believe all our claims are exclusive .Even the claim ' all roads lead to the same God " claim ,this is exclusive and rules out the individual claim of another .
Often its made to sound ' tolerant ' ( The new fashionable, buzz word )
" All truth is relative " again, another exclusive truth claim.
" Thats true for you , but not true for me " hmmm lol ?
I used to believe that all religions were just ' sign posts ' to the same goal . Just different ways to express or reach the same goal " Again this is a exclusive claim.
Thoughts?

alternative truths are lazy at best, misleading at worst

Mankind always attempt to dictate the terms of belief, but God has already spoken and he has shown which path leads to him.

Anything besides that is nothing more then fools gold.
 

KerimF

Active Member
Yes but you assume they were embedded by a creator and not part of evolution. There is no evidence of a creator or that instincts are put there and if there were that the creator would be Yahweh is unlikely.

You may be right.
In fact, every human has the right to fool himself when he sees a robot in action and say its has no maker in case he cannot find out any sign of its maker other than his robot only.

So my crucial point was never to just believe there is a Will/Energy behind my existence (a very complex system, not just a mere robot). Instead, it was to KNOW it within myself (not from any other source). It is somehow like analyzing the code of a robot to visualize, as possible, the nature of its maker; mainly if the maker has inserted in it some info about himself.

Now, you have likely the impression that I knew the One Will/Energy which is behind my existence as being one of the various gods that are offered on the world's table. Nope, none of these gods reflects the image of my Creator I have in me. Here are some main points of the God I know:

[1] My Creator doesn't need imposing on humans any rules to obey and/or rituals to observe. The embedded instincts are enough to guide every person and let his living flesh play its role(s) for which it is created. Thanks to these instincts, almost all humans in the world knew how to be gathered in various well-organized groups (controlled by rules; social, religious and political).

[2] This One Will/Energy cannot be of a one-being only. Otherwise, this one being would have no other choice but to play the selfish powerful ruler/king over its creatures. It happens that I can't be selfish even if I have all the means to impose my will on some others.

[3] My Creator doesn't need my worship and praise in public. The relationship with my Creator is strictly a personal one.

It happens, to my big surprise, that this image in me was revealed already by Jesus only! (on the today's Gospel).

Please note that when I talk to someone, I just say what I have in mind. And, no matter the reply of the other side is, I always gain from it more insight about the real world (the way it is created) to confirm what I know about its reality.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Speaking about "blah blah"....wow? I was Christian and told to look into historical sources. I already know the apologetics. Now I know why it's crank psuedo-science. There are not really "conflicting scholars", the entire biblical historicity field is generally in agreement about a man being mythicised as a savior demigod after the fact according to OT prophecy and pagan religions prior to Christianity.
I see consensus, evidence and rationale explorations to come to conclusions. In apologetics I see ridiculous work-arounds to make fantasy true.

The biblical archeologists are also in consensus, Moses is a myth, Exodus is a national foundation myth, Noah and the creation stories are Mesopotamian myths, 2nd temple Judaism are the beginning of borrowing Persian/Greek concepts. The scholars generally agree on most points and actually put forth evidence when they make a claim.



What I thought. You don't know anything about biblical scholarship. From Thomas Thompsons work on Moses being mythical up to Ehrman, Carrier, Purvoe, Pagels, none of them have radically different opinions, they have re-read source material countless times and any that were Christian are no longer. You may be confusing crank with actual work done in the field. What matters is evidence and how it's evaluated. If new and good evidence comes in then it's respected if it's unsourced and crank then it cannot even get peer-reviewed.
The expert on the Persian religion is Mary Boyce. She spent her life working on Zoroastrianism and lived in Iran for over a year. All of her work is based on available original source material and no one is attempting to debunk her work.
Oh, wait, no, apologists consistantly deny her work based on Google articles and other amateur apologetics they find using a search. The only conflicts are when established facts are challenged by apologetics writing articles to make believers feel better.

What you mention sounds like crank history where anyone with money can write a "researched history" and get it published by paying a publisher. Like Joseph Atwells Ceasars Messia or DaVinci Code or the book that claimed Jesus was a copy of Horus. All crank written by non-scholars.

The historicity field does read scripture, original sources as well as all variants and any historical mentions from other sources. They spend 4 years just learning how to vette sources and read arimaic, Hebrew, Greek, all dialects from the period and other religious scripture, Latin and any other language source histories were written in. There are specialists in NT, OT, Acts, Q gospel, Josephus, Gnostic gospels and archeologists as well. They paint a picture that has many consensus opinions.
I have no idea what you are speaking of or are you just making stuff up?

Another great post, joelr. Christians don't want "THE" truth, they only want their truth--which is anything that agrees with their church-taught notions that Jesus is God died for our sins. The real truth is easily demonstrated to them but Christians' only reaction to it is
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Faith in God, all sincere faith is directed at the only God that there is regardless of the limitations of humans and their concepts.
You don't know that.
Faith is faith, not any kind of arrogant dismissal of the rest of the world's beliefs and religions.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
This is an exclusive truth claim. Again it contradicts how the bible explains how we are saved today ,but yes this is on point with the OP .
But Christians trawl the Bible for anything that will fit with their ideas, and that's why so many are well removed from what Jesus wanted.
 

John1.12

Free gift
-I know of no historian who believes the Biblical mythology
-The Queen is a real person
-Mormonism, nope no historian
- Hindu, Tolle, Scientology, Aliens, ufo "ibid"
-Dark Matter - many cosmologists have good evidence for this
-witch stuff same as religion
- Green Peace - is real
- All Gods are false - cannot be proven
-One true God - no good evidence

Sorry, no historians are backing biblical myths. Theologians start by assuming they are studying Gods words. Not interested in pre-suppositions. Interested in evaluating evidence.

As much as you seem to want to muddy the waters (common apologetic tactic) myths can be examined. Sources can be found, in fact there are many known Christian forgeries like the fake Epistles and the Josephus forgeries. We also know the 2nd century was full of bizarre Christian sects showing there was likely no one true story.
We can determine what is reasonable true.
Of course certain historians are not backing ' myths ' . They would be out of a job .
 
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