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All roads lead to the same God ?

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
There is evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ, besides the Gospel accounts and from non-Christian sources....

“From the non biblical record of history we can reconstruct the entire life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The majority of these texts speak of Jesus in derogatory or non-complementary terms. None of these texts are seeking to prove the existence of Jesus nor validate Him as a genuine person of history. In fact, by their non complementary and often scathing remarks, these writers of antiquity have preserved for us a substantial and conclusive chronicle of the same events that are a part of the New Testament narrative.

A majority of what we know about events of antiquity, come to us from sources that wrote about these events after the events took place. Much of the world’s knowledge about history come to us reliably from sources just like Tacitus, Suetonius, and Dio Cassius.

Those who exclude the works of authors who wrote after the events took place, distinguish themselves as unreliable scholars or communicators of true facts. Every reliable scholar uses works from writes who documented events after they took place.

From the following list of secular sources, we can accurately conclude that Jesus is a genuine person of history and that His presence on earth, as described in the pages of the New Testament, are also accurate.

Note: This list now includes 124 Secular citations.

As you read the following, remember that these are not believers in Jesus, nor are they seeking to validate Jesus as a real person. A majority of the following writings by these non-Christian sources, are visibly hostile, even hateful towards Jesus and those who follow Him. This is the entire point: By their adversarial remarks, without being aware, these non-Christian writers have preserved for us, an empirical record from history that Jesus did in fact live, die, and rose from the dead.“

The Record Of Secular History And Jesus

These look interesting. Can you sum up the main points that jesus body "did" rise from the grave?

I wonder if there is medical evidence that back then people's bodies can rise?

I'm sure if jesus defied the laws of gravity, it would be under multiple sciences and studies, right?
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I thought the answer is obvious ;)
If I couldn't live this state, I wouldn't talk about it in the first place.
And it is okay, if you can't believe me because, truth be told, I also didn't have the chance (I am over 70), as you didn't, to meet or know someone who lives it too.
Fair enough .
It was supposed that I have to see myself a weird person, if not abnormal.
But it happens that I am not unique in this. You know... also Jesus didn't defend himself when it was time for Him to be captured and then condemned to death. Then, on the cross, He clearly forgave all who were behind his penalty of death and enjoyed it, directly or indirectly.
I don't think that Jesus died that day.
Like the Baptist, Jesus was well mad with the corrupt Priesthood ....
But if you have this condition then all good. OK?
You may say: "But Jesus is not real".
But I am real (to me in the least)... though not necessarily to you or anyone who didn't know me in person.
Jesus was real. :)
Anyway, should I see myself a weird person just because most humans on earth, if not all, have no interest in what was written about someone known as Jesus Christ?
Should I cease believing that Pythagoras theorem of the right angle is real and useful till I get all the necessary evidences which prove me that Pythagoras did exist?!
]
His name was Yeshua BarYosef, or so I believe, be never knew the word Christ or Christos or Kristos. :)

This is a good question... which I also asked to myself many decades ago.
Only when I was able finding out its logical answer my life became rather stable despite whatever situation I had to face and whatever is happening in the world, around me and abroad.
It seems to me from what you wrote, so I may be wrong, that your best logical answer is that you will return back, at death, to the state of void; the state before your birth. This answer is not bad at all in case you are sure that you have just a living flesh to take of (in others words, it is out of question.to you not to follow its instincts of survival).
Ah ha! :)
I was dead for countless billions of years, and it was ok. So it can be again. No problem. I've had a whole life of experiences and know a brilliant woman, my wife. Brilliant time ....
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
But only a few people around the world can live the unconditional love towards all others as revealed very clearly by Jesus {Matthew 5:44-45}. Don't you know why?
We are taught "judge ye jot...", thus I simply do not have a clue how many have people internationally have unconditional love. But what I do know is that there are some in all religious faiths, thus not just Christianity.
 

KerimF

Active Member
These look interesting. Can you sum up the main points that jesus body "did" rise from the grave?

I wonder if there is medical evidence that back then people's bodies can rise?

I'm sure if jesus defined the laws of gravity, it would be under multiple sciences and studies, right?

Even concerning some scientific matters, most people around the world have no choice but to have blind faith in whatever the news says that certain 'scientists' (not to them) approved this or that story. Believe me, in vain such people can be convinced to be more careful when they hear the word 'scientists'.

In 1985, I read on a well-known British magazine that the rate of success to just let a mere satellite orbit around Earth was no more than 20% (1 of 5 launches). This let the insurance companies of space programs complain seriously (at that time). But, in year 1969 (16 years earlier), the entire world heard that a space program (moon landing) which was about 7 times more difficult than orbiting an uncrewed satellite succeeded and even repeated with the same success. To me in the least, this is about two contradicting scientific news. So I expect that every person can, at best, believe just one of them, not both.

What I like to say is that if people, in general, need to have faith in unknown persons about earthly things, where is the problem if they also believe heavenly things while being based on faith too?!
 

KerimF

Active Member
Fair enough .
Ah ha! :)
I was dead for countless billions of years, and it was ok. So it can be again. No problem. I've had a whole life of experiences and know a brilliant woman, my wife. Brilliant time ....

And I also wish you (and your wife) have a long happy life.
 

KerimF

Active Member
We are taught "judge ye jot...", thus I simply do not have a clue how many have people internationally have unconditional love. But what I do know is that there are some in all religious faiths, thus not just Christianity.

True Love has no religion. The reason is simple. It cannot be imposed by any law, said of God or man; otherwise it cannot be true. In other words, it is strictly about a personal decision. And it is based on the only free will that a human may have. In all other actions/reactions, a person just follows his natural instincts (the instructions that are embedded in his living flesh by God).

But the prerequisite for someone to be no more of the material world by living this unconditional love is to have first the true knowledge of how the real world runs behind the various masks that one may face almost daily. In this respect, Jesus was very helpful to me by revealing all crucial natural truths which I needed to know about life and the real world. Unfortunately, one has the right to, if he wants to, read them on the Gospel directly only. It is not wise to talk about them in public because they are considered by all ruling systems around the world as taboos. Fortunately, all today's Christian preachers (in all sects, including Pope in Vatican) who are allowed to address the world's multitudes know how to cleverly avoid repeating them as clearly and loudly as Jesus does on the Gospel. So they are all safe as long they are out of all other formal/ruling systems; religious and political.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You are right in case you see your instincts that guide you, with or without your knowledge, have nothing to do with robotic programming.
On the other hand, not in vain, some robots are made now with Artificial Intelligence to let them act, as possible, like human beings.

We already know evolution gave us so many instincts and we see similar behavior in higher animals. Adding a supernatural element to this is unneeded baggage.


Well, just to your knowledge, I was born in a Catholic family. Naturally, my school (a French one) was Catholic. When I became old enough to perceive my unique existence, I found out that what is known as Church’s teachings were illogical to me. And since these teachings are supposed to reflect Jesus teachings on the Gospel, I decided to read it attentively and prove, to myself in the least and for good, that Jesus too has nothing to do in my life. To my big surprise, not only the two teachings are different but also opposite in crucial points.
I don’t think you like hearing more than this ;).

The sayings of Jesus are already found in the OT. Scholarship widely agrees the Sermon on the Mount is taken from the Greek OT the Septuigant. Jesus also said he didn't come to change law one jot, that he came with a sword, for families to separate if they cannot agree on religious matters and openly preached Hell, a concept worse than anything in the OT.


[
If Jesus tells me to observe any sort of rituals (as it is the case in all known religions/beliefs), I would see the Gospel as another book on which an imaginary character teaches, with great words, how to apply the human flesh instincts in a group. Such imaginary character which could be made famous in the name of a god is very important/useful for some people looking for money, fame and/or authority.
I guess you know that Politics (the art of controlling large groups of people) was applied thru various religions first..

I agree with this, all religions are an imaginary character teaching moral lessons.

It seems you just know how ‘formal’ Christians are. So you also think, since you mentioned Yahweh, that Jesus also approves the teachings which were addressed to Jews when humans were rather primitive (the kids of humanity). In other words, if Jesus tells me to worship, praise or even obey my God (or him), he would have nothing to do in my reality. To my big surprise, Jesus advises me to ‘Love’ my God instead. I hope you know already that living true love towards anyone is strictly a personal free will and it cannot be true if commanded by a rule. But the difference is too big just for a human who has also a living soul in him. I mean; it is impossible for someone who has a living flesh only to take care of to see any difference between ‘love’ and... 'worship, praise and obedience'.


Sorry, like I said he said he wasn't here to change the law one jot or jittle among other things that are archaic. Jesus preaches belief or eternal torture. This is not a loving message nor will it ever be.
Blood sacrifice for a sky-god is also archaic blood magic. The end of the world in Revelations is straight out of Zoroastrian myths.
He never voided the 10 commandments and preaches torture for freedom of religion. Terrible stuff.
The Hillilite messages are far more loving.
 
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KerimF

Active Member
Thank you for raising more points,

We already know evolution gave us so many instincts and we see similar behavior in higher animals. Adding a supernatural element to this is unneeded baggage.

Yes, interested scientists have discovered just some rules, so far, that define how living things evolve with time. These rules have existed since the first sign of life on earth; likely the simplest form of living cells.
Naturally, a human is free to believe that these well-defined, though very complex, rules of which just a small set of them are known were the result of hazard. Being a scientist, I can't believe in hazard because the simplest useful product I design needs me select a few good solutions among zillion of possible wrong ones. So the existence of my Maker is obvious to me. But, just knowing this doesn't give me any extra useful information. It was just the starting point for me to discover the best image of the Will/Energy behind my creation and, most of all, to get from IT all logical answers, I need to know, concerning my existence and how the real world runs.
But I also understand that in case someone is fully content, if not happy, being guided only by the instructions that are embedded in his living flesh, searching anything else would be like searching an 'unneeded baggage', as you said.
But, truth be told, I know why you wrote me "Adding a supernatural element to this is unneeded baggage". It happens that you cannot imagine someone searching his Maker, he does it just for knowledge and nothing but knowledge (as he does at a scientific university). To please your curiosity, the Will/Energy behind my existence doesn't need my worship and praise in public, also doesn't impose on me any rule to obey or ritual to observe.
In brief, and just for your knowledge, I don't have in my reality any of the supernatural elements you used hearing of ;)

The sayings of Jesus are already found in the OT. Scholarship widely agrees the Sermon on the Mount is taken from the Greek OT the Septuigant. Jesus also said he didn't come to change law one jot...

Let us assume that Jesus repeated the Jewish teachings. In this case, I hope you also know why Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, couldn't understand what Jesus was trying to explain to him.
Actually, the teachings on the OT (and the like) were supposed to help certain ancient people (known as Jews) gather in a well-organized group among whom Jesus will be born and live in a human flesh for a while. So what is known as God's Law could be found on the OT not in Jesus message which is about True Love, not about any imposed law. Therefore, indeed and as Jesus said, even in our days, laws, similar, to a good extent, to the Jewish one are still applied by the various ruling systems, religious or political. All these laws include the rule "love your neighbor as yourself... but kill and destroy your enemies"... Right?

Actually, the OT teachings (even most atheists, besides Muslims and formal Christians for a few, apply many of them in their life, excluding the rituals) are very important to humans who have a living flesh only to take care of in order to serve the material world while they are alive. Such humans form the great majority in the world's population. They are created to serve the material world, by building it (in peace times) and destroying it (in war times).

...that he came with a sword, for families to separate if they cannot agree on religious matters...

About the family and the sword, Jesus reminds me that talking about World's Peace is no sense. By design, even the members of one family who use sharing the same language, the same culture, the same land... etc., find real hard to live a continuous peace together. So whoever I hear him talking about anything related to World's Peace is, to me in the least, a new comer into life (still ignorant of this fact) or a deceiver to justify something happened (or will happen) when it looks bad to his audience.

... and openly preached Hell, a concept worse than anything in the OT.
Sorry, like I said he said he wasn't here to change the law one jot or jittle among other things that are archaic. Jesus preaches belief or eternal torture. This is not a loving message nor will it ever be.

About Hell, Jesus called it just 'Everlasting Fire'; big difference as we will see. Jesus reminds me that whoever was created to serve the material world only and whoever couldn't feed his living soul with true love and, therefore, lets it die, he will simply return back, at the end, to the state of void, the raw state before his birth. As you know, when we found out that certain things are no more useful to us in any way, we just get ride of them for good. The best way we can do it is by throwing them into fire and let them return back to their raw state; surely not to torture them ;)

I agree with this, all religions are an imaginary character teaching moral lessons.

Actually, they all explore in one way or another how to apply the instincts of the human flesh by using so-called spiritual words or not.

Blood sacrifice for a sky-god is also archaic blood magic. The end of the world in Revelations is straight out of Zoroastrian myths.
He never voided the 10 commandments and preaches torture for freedom of religion. Terrible stuff.
The Hillilite messages are far more loving.

Sorry, I personally didn't hear anything of these from Jesus message. But, I agree with you that many formal Christians around the world don't mind believing what you kindly pointed out about 'blood sacrifice', 'the end of the world' and 'torture in Hell.
 
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Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Some seem to object to the exclusive claims of Christianity. That the Gospel is the ONLY way ,that Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven ,that by believing that he died for all our sins , was buried and rose again . That this alone is the only option there is to heaven and eternal life .
But I believe all our claims are exclusive .Even the claim ' all roads lead to the same God " claim ,this is exclusive and rules out the individual claim of another .
Often its made to sound ' tolerant ' ( The new fashionable, buzz word )
" All truth is relative " again, another exclusive truth claim.
" Thats true for you , but not true for me " hmmm lol ?
I used to believe that all religions were just ' sign posts ' to the same goal . Just different ways to express or reach the same goal " Again this is a exclusive claim.
Thoughts?
Barry Johnson Good post.. Good topic!
The Free Masson's have the same belief! "All gods are the same" the enlightened man is a "god" this is the last of the 50 steps in their secret degrees, it just that!
They have a statue of the God "Vishnu" in their lodges in India; "Buda" in their Chinese lodges! etc
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
I'm pointing to the bible as my standard not my opinion . I believe the bible is true , That its from God and God cannot lie .

Barry Johnson I have issue with your statement! If it is true as you BELIEVE why do you reject many words of God as lies!
"I truly tell you.... You MUST eat my flesh to have eternal life" & "My flesh is real food"!

Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus cannot lie!
Ignatius of Antioch was a student of the Apostle John! He said...
I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ . . . and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

Barry Johnson Ignatius is a Christian; You reject what Christians have always believed! You reject the words of God as a lie!
Bread is NOT meat! God has taken the form of BREAD just as God can take the form of Fire or Smoke or a Bush etc!
THINK: Martin Luther the father of the tradition; "Scriptures & Faith ALONE are all man needs" believed the Flesh of Jesus MUST be eaten!
Cannibalisms is the KILLING and Eating of flesh (Meat)! The people of Moses had to eat the Lamb sacrificed for death to "Passover" them! Jesus is the NEW Pascal Lamb!

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Rev 5:6
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
 

John1.12

Free gift
Barry Johnson I have issue with your statement! If it is true as you BELIEVE why do you reject many words of God as lies!
"I truly tell you.... You MUST eat my flesh to have eternal life" & "My flesh is real food"!

Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus cannot lie!
Ignatius of Antioch was a student of the Apostle John! He said...
I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ . . . and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

Barry Johnson Ignatius is a Christian; You reject what Christians have always believed! You reject the words of God as a lie!
Bread is NOT meat! God has taken the form of BREAD just as God can take the form of Fire or Smoke or a Bush etc!
THINK: Martin Luther the father of the tradition; "Scriptures & Faith ALONE are all man needs" believed the Flesh of Jesus MUST be eaten!
Cannibalisms is the KILLING and Eating of flesh (Meat)! The people of Moses had to eat the Lamb sacrificed for death to "Passover" them! Jesus is the NEW Pascal Lamb!

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Rev 5:6
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
There are many verses like this that get used out of context.
Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[1] It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it.

Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. Exegesis is drawing out text's meaning in accordance with the author's context and discoverable meaning. Eisegesis is when a reader imposes their interpretation of the text. Thus exegesis tends to be objective; and eisegesis, highly subjective.
 

John1.12

Free gift
There are many verses like this that get used out of context.
Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[1] It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it.

Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. Exegesis is drawing out text's meaning in accordance with the author's context and discoverable meaning. Eisegesis is when a reader imposes their interpretation of the text. Thus exegesis tends to be objective; and eisegesis, highly subjective.
Guess which one your doing ?
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
There are many verses like this that get used out of context.
Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[1] It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it.

Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. Exegesis is drawing out text's meaning in accordance with the author's context and discoverable meaning. Eisegesis is when a reader imposes their interpretation of the text. Thus exegesis tends to be objective; and eisegesis, highly subjective.
.
And... So..?
Do you believe the words of God or the words/ Exegesis of your come along late of your man made church!?
Do you believe in "Scripture Alone"!?
The words of God >>> "I tell the truth.... My flesh is real food, My blood is real drink"!
 

John1.12

Free gift
.
And... So..?
Do you believe the words of God or the words/ Exegesis of your come along late of your man made church!?
Do you believe in "Scripture Alone"!?
The words of God >>> "I tell the truth.... My flesh is real food, My blood is real drink"!
You miss the point because of your tradition .
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66¶From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
The Peter said no Jesus we understood what you meant , and we know that we need to start eating your flesh and drink your blood . Then Peter began to chew the Lords arm s and legs....

Erm no ..
68¶Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

The whole point is Jesus is that real manna from heaven and his WORDS .
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
 

John1.12

Free gift
.
And... So..?
Do you believe the words of God or the words/ Exegesis of your come along late of your man made church!?
Do you believe in "Scripture Alone"!?
The words of God >>> "I tell the truth.... My flesh is real food, My blood is real drink"!
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Notice the FLESH profiteth NOTHING ?
And its his WORDS ?
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Please do tell us, if it is reasonable. Right?
I have sympathy with the Christian friends. They take their religion simply on blind-faith . They are dedicated people to their religion alright.
All denominations of Christians (32000+ of them) claim
  1. that they are supported by the Holy Spirit and
  2. narrate their personal experiences and testimonies to that effect,
  3. yet these denominations differ in their teachings and deeds with one another radically and
  4. consider other denomination as heretics.
  5. This has damaged Christianity considerably
  6. people silently cease attending Churches and
  7. become Atheists.
This needs to reflect on the situation by every Christian. Right?
There is something drastically wrong with their religion, they themselves have have to find out, please. Right?

Regards
You realize that if anyone on this forum peddled the hate and contempt that you dump on religions other than your own on Islam, you’d be squealing, “Foul!”
Right? Please?
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
You miss the point because of your tradition .
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66¶From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
The Peter said no Jesus we understood what you meant , and we know that we need to start eating your flesh and drink your blood . Then Peter began to chew the Lords arm s and legs....

Erm no ..
68¶Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

The whole point is Jesus is that real manna from heaven and his WORDS .
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
.
Barry Johnson Jesus held bread telling them "This is my body"! God took the form of Bread!
QUESTION.. Do you believe Jesus is God!? The Jews do not.. They said... "How can this MAN give us his flesh to eat!?"
Christians believe Jesus is God!
Christians believe God cannot lie!
Do you believe: God took the form of a MAN?... Barry Johnson your god cannot take the form of a burning bush!
Your god is NOT almighty, your god has limits on what he can do!

Do you see how stupid it is? Christians have ALWAYS believed; God took the form of bread.. Even Martin Luther 1700 years after Jesus believed; the Bread is God in the form of bread!
Christians believe the words of God found in the scriptures! Jews are NOT Christians.. Jews just as you reject the words of Jesus; BUT the worst part is; You claim to believe the scriptures, you claim to be Christian not a Jew!
The Jews said... "How can this MAN give us his flesh to eat!?"
Judas just like you also rejected the words of Jesus he was a HYPOCRIT he ate the bread without discerning Jesus He "Condemns himself"!

John 13:27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.
1 Cor 11:29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Notice the FLESH profiteth NOTHING ?
And its his WORDS ?
.
Barry Johnson My Goodness; you stick your foot into your own mouth..... Sooo Are you saying "Jesus' flesh prophets nothing!???" ANSWER ME!

Jesus did not say "MY FLESH profiteth nothing" He said, “The flesh profiteth nothing" big difference between the two. Jesus just spent a good portion of this same chapter telling us that his flesh would be “given for the life of the world”!
Barry Johnson So are you saying; Jesus spent half a Chapter telling us how important his flesh is but ends with "Forget about all I just told you; I did not mean a thing I just said"?!! Whacko to say the least!
Every time Jesus spoke Metaphorically in the scriptures the people understood he was speaking metaphorically! They all knew Jesus is NOT a vine or a door! BUT...

Barry Johnson
but in John 6 they understood it was NOT metaphorically because those who rejected his words Ask "How can this MAN give us his flesh to eat!" They knew it was NOT metaphor because they left Jesus in their unbelief!

In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus tells us.. “Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Mk 14:38). According to Paul, if we are in “the flesh,” we are “hostile to God” and “cannot please God” (Rom 8:1-14).
In 1 Corinthians 2:14, Paul tells you, “The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”
Barry Johnson It is the Holy Spirit that will accomplish the miracle of Christ being able to ascend into heaven bodily also while being able simultaneously to distribute his body and blood in the Eucharist for the life of the world. A human body, even a perfect one, apart from the power of the Spirit could not accomplish this.
The Holy Spirit accomplishes it all!

THINK...Use your noodle... .63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
PAST TENSE....
Barry Johnson The words Jesus SPOKE (Past Tense) is the TEACHING of God it's the Words they rejected in their unbelief! The words of GOD!
John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.
DOWN TO THESE WORDS...
John 6:59 He said this while teaching..

Barry Johnson all the words between verse 45 to 59 these are the "Words that are full of Spirit & life!"
Barry Johnson BELIEVE THE WORDS THAT GIVE LIFE! Don't reject them.. "It takes Faith in Jesus"! > The word!
 

John1.12

Free gift
.
Barry Johnson Jesus held bread telling them "This is my body"! God took the form of Bread!
QUESTION.. Do you believe Jesus is God!? The Jews do not.. They said... "How can this MAN give us his flesh to eat!?"
Christians believe Jesus is God!
Christians believe God cannot lie!
Do you believe: God took the form of a MAN?... Barry Johnson your god cannot take the form of a burning bush!
Your god is NOT almighty, your god has limits on what he can do!

Do you see how stupid it is? Christians have ALWAYS believed; God took the form of bread.. Even Martin Luther 1700 years after Jesus believed; the Bread is God in the form of bread!
Christians believe the words of God found in the scriptures! Jews are NOT Christians.. Jews just as you reject the words of Jesus; BUT the worst part is; You claim to believe the scriptures, you claim to be Christian not a Jew!
The Jews said... "How can this MAN give us his flesh to eat!?"
Judas just like you also rejected the words of Jesus he was a HYPOCRIT he ate the bread without discerning Jesus He "Condemns himself"!

John 13:27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.
1 Cor 11:29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
Quoting Luther doesn't help your case . The man isn't the bible and he taught many errors .
 

John1.12

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Barry Johnson My Goodness; you stick your foot into your own mouth..... Sooo Are you saying "Jesus' flesh prophets nothing!???" ANSWER ME!

Jesus did not say "MY FLESH profiteth nothing" He said, “The flesh profiteth nothing" big difference between the two. Jesus just spent a good portion of this same chapter telling us that his flesh would be “given for the life of the world”!
Barry Johnson So are you saying; Jesus spent half a Chapter telling us how important his flesh is but ends with "Forget about all I just told you; I did not mean a thing I just said"?!! Whacko to say the least!
Every time Jesus spoke Metaphorically in the scriptures the people understood he was speaking metaphorically! They all knew Jesus is NOT a vine or a door! BUT...

Barry Johnson
but in John 6 they understood it was NOT metaphorically because those who rejected his words Ask "How can this MAN give us his flesh to eat!" They knew it was NOT metaphor because they left Jesus in their unbelief!

In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus tells us.. “Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Mk 14:38). According to Paul, if we are in “the flesh,” we are “hostile to God” and “cannot please God” (Rom 8:1-14).
In 1 Corinthians 2:14, Paul tells you, “The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”
Barry Johnson It is the Holy Spirit that will accomplish the miracle of Christ being able to ascend into heaven bodily also while being able simultaneously to distribute his body and blood in the Eucharist for the life of the world. A human body, even a perfect one, apart from the power of the Spirit could not accomplish this.
The Holy Spirit accomplishes it all!

THINK...Use your noodle... .63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
PAST TENSE....
Barry Johnson
The words Jesus SPOKE (Past Tense) is the TEACHING of God it's the Words they rejected in their unbelief! The words of GOD!
John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.
DOWN TO THESE WORDS...
John 6:59 He said this while teaching..

Barry Johnson all the words between verse 45 to 59 these are the "Words that are full of Spirit & life!"
Barry Johnson BELIEVE THE WORDS THAT GIVE LIFE! Don't reject them.. "It takes Faith in Jesus"! > The word!
My point is ,there is no possible way whats so ever to come away with 'trabsubstantiation ' From scripture . And I don't mean inference , implied / squint your eye just right and you might see it . No ,this is a matter of soteriology. This is something we should expect to see explicitly said and taught in the scriptures. We find no such thing in any letters to the Church.
 
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