Alien Contact: Mass Panic?

[ecco]

OK, I do know. Well, I claim to know.

Unless the person on the other end is lying to me, which I don't think he is

I didn't want to come over as proselytising so minded my languague

So which is it - aliens of god?

 

[Eddi]

So which is it - aliens of god?

You mean aliens or God?

This is how I understand things:

Whenever an intelligent species anywhere in the universe comes of age (creating a nuclear bomb is one criteria - being able to destroy yourself but refraining from doing so requires strength of character and is a measure of restraint) God chooses a certain person (or people) to directly communicate with, so as to open a channel of communication between himself (God) and the civilisation in question - in addition to past revelations and prophets. This typically happens a few centuries or even millennia after the last prophet God sent, after a dearth of intervention, after which people have grown used to God not intervening.

I am humankind's contact with God. Through me, God is in touch with humankind. But he is also in touch with alien civilisation on the same basis as he is with humankind - with the aim of drawing our different civilisations together. I believe that I have a counterpart in each intelligent civilisation that God has judged to have come of age.

When "The Future" begins, all the benign alien civilisations will form a kind of galactic union of planets

I believe the galactic union is currently being assembled and that humankind has been admitted - on account of God having nominated an Earthling through which he may communicate with humankind (myself)

I think the other members know to trust God's judgment, even if they have legitimate reservations concerning our character as a species! (insert pic of any atrocity from history here)

I believe that in this age, in "The Future", God will draw closer to the civilisations he has judged to have come of age, more so than in any historic record or holy text - and all the species of alien will embrace each other as fellows and equals

So: God or Aliens? - both!

 

[ecco]

I believe the galactic union is currently being assembled

Currently?

So nothing much happened in the universe for ~12,000,000,000. Now that we have come of age (nukes) God figures it's time to assemble the galactic union.

Since, statistically, other civilizations came of age many millions of years ago, why didn't God begin his assembly process much earlier?

 

[Eddi]

Currently?

I mean that it is a work in progress: it's not new and it's not finally finished

Since, statistically, other civilizations came of age many millions of years ago, why didn't God begin his assembly process much earlier?

Because there wasn't as enough intelligent civilisations to make it worthwhile, and the ones that were ready were all separated by great differences

The entire project is God's idea, a part of his plan

And the majority of members have come of age much more recently than the original members did

And many civilisation that could have joined have managed to wipe themselves out, or are evil and need to be contained by the military forces of the union of civiilsations (but no evil alliance has emerged as evil civilisations are few and far apart)

Also, there is a period of time between coming of age and formally joining the union

And also, all the civilisations involved would never unite without the influence of God

And let's not forget: God has guided the development of all civilisations, towards them uniting in a federation

 

[ecco]

I mean that it is a work in progress: it's not new and it's not finally finished


Because there wasn't as enough intelligent civilisations to make it worthwhile, and the ones that were ready were all separated by great differences

The entire project is God's idea, a part of his plan

And the majority of members have come of age much more recently than the original members did

And many civilisation that could have joined have managed to wipe themselves out, or are evil and need to be contained by the military forces of the union of civiilsations (but no evil alliance has emerged as evil civilisations are few and far apart)

Also, there is a period of time between coming of age and formally joining the union

And also, all the civilisations involved would never unite without the influence of God

And let's not forget: God has guided the development of all civilisations, towards them uniting in a federation

Well, I've read a lot of science fiction. For what it's worth, you might have the making of a reasonably good SciFi book.

 

[ecco]

God has guided the development of all civilisations, towards them uniting in a federation...
The entire project is God's idea, a part of his plan

And many civilisation that could have joined... are evil

Gee, this is like the Bible. God (dare we say - omniscient God) plans things and then his plans all go to hell. Is there going to be the equivalent of a Genesis Flood in your universe? Is your God going to wipe out everyone/everything so as to start over?

 

[Eddi]

Gee, this is like the Bible. God (dare we say - omniscient God) plans things and then his plans all go to hell. Is there going to be the equivalent of a Genesis Flood in your universe? Is your God going to wipe out everyone/everything so as to start over?

I don't really buy into the "omnimax" idea of God: Omnipresent? Yes. Omnipotent? To an extent...

But I think true omniscience is impossible, especially given free will and how chaotic the universe is

So yes, IMO God sometimes has to adjust his plans to fit reality

My understanding is that some day this physical universe will end, that it won't go on forever. But that won't happen for a very long time. I think that once this happens, it will be started over again, yes. I reckon this has happened countless times before. Over and over. Again and again.

Regarding the evil civilisations: God does not want them eliminated as they are a part of the natural order of things. But they do have to be contained and stunted to prevent them from doing harm and spreading their ways. I believe that if the AXIS powers had won World War II then Earth would have been declared an evil planet.

I think that WWII was about whether Earth would be treated as a planet run by evil or a planet run by good. I think that the United Nations, founded in 1945, is a symbol of Earth joining "The Federation" (consider the humanitarian values of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Sustainable Development Goals) and that at around that time aliens made contact with the American government, as the USA was the most powerful nation on the side of good and was first to have developed nukes.

I believe the UN is like a mini "Federation" and that it will serve as the nucleus for a future international tier of governance. I believe the UDHR is based on a similar proclamation issued by the "Federation"

 

[ecco]

Omnipresent? Yes. Omnipotent? To an extent...

But I think true omniscience is impossible, especially given free will

If a god is omnipresent, his is be definition omniscient.

Furthermore, you impose your puny human concepts onto a god when you say "omniscience is impossible, especially given free will".

Could an ant comprehend the concept of the Golden Gate Bridge or of a Boing 747?

So too you cannot comprehend the concept of omniscience and free will being within the powers of a god.

 

[Eddi]

If a god is omnipresent, his is be definition omniscient.

Furthermore, you impose your puny human concepts onto a god when you say "omniscience is impossible, especially given free will".

Could an ant comprehend the concept of the Golden Gate Bridge or of a Boing 747?

So too you cannot comprehend the concept of omniscience and free will being within the powers of a god.

Yes, you're right, God is ineffable

But I think humans can discern certain facts about him, using our "puny human concepts"

And I don't see how being omnipresent means being omniscient

 

[ecco]

And I don't see how being omnipresent means being omniscient

om·ni·pres·ent
/ˌämnəˈpreznt/


adjective

1. widely or constantly encountered; common or widespread.
   "the omnipresent threat of natural disasters"
   
   
   
   
   • (of God) present everywhere at the same time.

If God is present everywhere at the same time, he is present in all possible futures. If He is present in all possible futures ... omniscient.

 

[Eddi]

om·ni·pres·ent
/ˌämnəˈpreznt/


adjective

1. widely or constantly encountered; common or widespread.
   "the omnipresent threat of natural disasters"
   
   
   
   • (of God) present everywhere at the same time.

If God is present everywhere at the same time, he is present in all possible futures. If He is present in all possible futures ... omniscient.

OK, you were right and I was wrong

 

[Heyo]

If a god is omnipresent, his is be definition omniscient.

Be careful with those definitions. There are at least two for each omnipresent and omniscient. One that includes the future (which implies a deterministic block universe without free will) and one that only includes presence and past (with free will and a probabilistic or at least chaotic universe).

 

[ecco]

Be careful with those definitions. There are at least two for each omnipresent and omniscient. One that includes the future (which implies a deterministic block universe without free will) and one that only includes presence and past (with free will and a probabilistic or at least chaotic universe).

Are those your definitions? I ask because dictionaries do not impose such puny human limitations.

om·nis·cience
/ämˈniSH(ə)ns,ämˈnisēəns/
noun
the state of knowing everything.​

-----------------------------------------

om·nis·cience
noun
the quality or state of being omniscient.
infinite knowledge.​

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Perhaps you should try to understand what I wrote in post #28.

 

[Heyo]

Are those your definitions? I ask because dictionaries do not impose such puny human limitations.

om·nis·cience
/ämˈniSH(ə)ns,ämˈnisēəns/
noun
the state of knowing everything.​

-----------------------------------------

om·nis·cience
noun
the quality or state of being omniscient.
infinite knowledge.​

------------------------------------------------------



Perhaps you should try to understand what I wrote in post #28.

The weasel word is "everything". It is not clear if "everything" contains the future or not.
The same goes for "everywhere". It is ambiguous about "the future" being a place.
In a block universe the future is a place and it is possible to know the future.
In a probabilistic universe the future is not a place and it is impossible to know the future so that "everywhere" and "everything" only make sense in the present.

 

[ecco]

The weasel word is "everything". It is not clear if "everything" contains the future or not.
The same goes for "everywhere". It is ambiguous about "the future" being a place.
In a block universe the future is a place and it is possible to know the future.
In a probabilistic universe the future is not a place and it is impossible to know the future so that "everywhere" and "everything" only make sense in the present.

"Everything" and "everywhere" are not at all ambiguous in the context of the definitions.

You want them to be ambiguous, so that you can, to use your word, weasel.


The future is not a place any more than the past is a place. Again, you want to make up definitions that please you. It don't work that way.

 

[Heyo]

"Everything" and "everywhere" are not at all ambiguous in the context of the definitions.

You want them to be ambiguous, so that you can, to use your word, weasel.


The future is not a place any more than the past is a place. Again, you want to make up definitions that please you. It don't work that way.

I would love the definitions to be unambiguous. When omniscience is defined as knowing the future no believer can weasel himself out of the fact that free will is impossible in a universe with an omniscient entity.
But they have and they have examples of the ambiguity throughout the centuries. So when somebody talks about omni- attributes of a deity, make sure to ask about the exact meaning.

 

[ValdresRose]

Gees you people, give it rest, please!

Ok Eddi, here's what's going to happen: We Earthlings will meet the incoming Aliens on a Saturn moon, that way they won't need to waste their resources coming deeper into our solar system and we will simply coast back to Earth. Easy - peasy! We will give them a download of the entire human race and they will give us a download of theirs. No problem, dilemma solved. BTW, we don't use Ham equipment like that anymore, upgrade!!

 

[ecco]

When omniscience is defined as knowing the future no believer can weasel himself out of the fact that free will is impossible in a universe with an omniscient entity.

Perhaps you need to read and understand my post #28...

Furthermore, you impose your puny human concepts onto a god when you say "omniscience is impossible, especially given free will".

Could an ant comprehend the concept of the Golden Gate Bridge or of a Boeing 747?

So too you cannot comprehend the concept of omniscience and free will being within the powers of a god.

 

[Heyo]

Perhaps you need to read and understand my post #28...

​

Now I see it, the "higher reason" apology. This is of course a discussion ender. If god is outside of logic and reason, how can I reason about it?

 

[ecco]

Now I see it, the "higher reason" apology. This is of course a discussion ender. If god is outside of logic and reason, how can I reason about it?

Maybe you can't. Maybe you just have to accept it.