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Ah--what's a few million years?

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
There is no evidence of abstract thinking, art etc. before 70,000 years ago. So it's not clear why anyone would expect them in Homo habilis Or Homo erectus. However there is clear evidence of increase in brain size and more sophisticated tool use as well as use of fire in the early Homo species groups. So clearly some parts of the brain were clearly evolving. But it's unlikely to be parts associated with abstract thinking. Otherwise it's inconceivable how the same tool design would be used for over 1 million years without change. A modern human will make something different out of sheer boredom! ;)
Within the past few years, many things have been developed that were not thought of a few thousand years ago. By a few thousand, I mean like 2000, not 70,000.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Neaderthals were different species. Being closely related, we were capable of partial interbreeding, as is the case for many closely related species in the world.
What is partial interbreeding, please, and can you give some modern day examples?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
That doesn't mean that birds become humans.

Nor would we expect birds to change into mammals.

First, evolution does not repeat itself exactly. once specializations are made, they tend to stay in the population. So you don't expect birds (one branch from reptiles) to turn into mammals ( a different branch from reptiles).

What you *do* expect is that birds would change, over long periods of time, into birds with different characteristics. They might become larger or smaller, develop different types of feathers, different genetic tendencies. Maybe some will lose their feathers entirely and have it replaced by the down that is common. And maybe that down then changes over time to a different type of skin covering. And, maybe, some birds would evolve into a *different* species able to think abstractly, produce poetry, and have technology. We just don't know.

But, for example, you want to see birds change into non-birds, while failing to grasp that the differences between birds are far more than the differences between humans and other great apes. Ostriches and sparrows are both birds, but a change from one to another would be a HUGE change in evolutionary terms.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Within the past few years, many things have been developed that were not thought of a few thousand years ago. By a few thousand, I mean like 2000, not 70,000.

And why do you think this is relevant? New thoughts don't make a different species. Cultural changes tend not to be genetic ones.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
What is partial interbreeding, please, and can you give some modern day examples?


Lions and tigers mate and produce ligers. Horses and Donkeys mate and produce mules. Zebras and horses can mate and produce offspring.

The difficulty is that often such mixes are sterile. But for closely related species, there can be gene flow occasionally.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Nor would we expect birds to change into mammals.

First, evolution does not repeat itself exactly. once specializations are made, they tend to stay in the population. So you don't expect birds (one branch from reptiles) to turn into mammals ( a different branch from reptiles).

What you *do* expect is that birds would change, over long periods of time, into birds with different characteristics. They might become larger or smaller, develop different types of feathers, different genetic tendencies. Maybe some will lose their feathers entirely and have it replaced by the down that is common. And maybe that down then changes over time to a different type of skin covering. And, maybe, some birds would evolve into a *different* species able to think abstractly, produce poetry, and have technology. We just don't know.

But, for example, you want to see birds change into non-birds, while failing to grasp that the differences between birds are far more than the differences between humans and other great apes. Ostriches and sparrows are both birds, but a change from one to another would be a HUGE change in evolutionary terms.
So, accordingly, as I understand it, birds stay birds, yes, I believe chimpanzees stay chimpanzees, and humans stay humans. I don't know too much about changes in chimpanzees (color of hair, eyes, things like that), but I do know that while humans stay humans, they integrate with genes transferring to make light or dark hair, sometimes the genes are recessive but come out in the individual, and so forth. I believe that populations produce distinct characteristics, but they do not become anything other than humans. To me, this is NOT evolution of the Darwinian kind. It is simple gene distribution. I appreciate your desire to explain, however, just as I am convinced that humans have not evolved in form from some unknown common ancestor, I am also convinced that chimpanzees (I use them as an example) will not evolve to something more or less than a chimpanzee, so the same holds for humans. They will stay humans. While I respect you, and appreciate your desire to help me, it's not like I cannot repeat or memorize what is being taught about evolution as a fact, I no longer believe all of it.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Lions and tigers mate and produce ligers. Horses and Donkeys mate and produce mules. Zebras and horses can mate and produce offspring.

The difficulty is that often such mixes are sterile. But for closely related species, there can be gene flow occasionally.
That is what I thought. Here is what I read: "Oct 09, 2019 · A mule is the offspring of a male donkey (a jack) and a female horse (a mare). A horse has 64 chromosomes, and a donkey has 62. The mule ends up with 63. Mules can be either male or female, but, because of the odd number of chromosomes, they can’t reproduce." Question: Can You Breed A Male Horse To A Female Donkey? - Horse (mayonahorse.com)
I read further and see that in rare cases, some mules have reproduced. Not sure how these offsprings integrated in the general population, or if they did.
So I go back to chimpanzees, bonobos and that "unknown common ancestor." Again -- going back to walking fish. Tetrapods. It seems to me it would be highly unlikely, to the point of close to nil, that humans evolved by interbreeding. Mules can’t reproduce. Here’s the biological explanation why. | Belleville News-Democrat (bnd.com) (Do walking fish and regular fish interbreed? I don't know the answer yet. Perhaps they do? Getting late -- )
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Within the past few years, many things have been developed that were not thought of a few thousand years ago. By a few thousand, I mean like 2000, not 70,000.
The basic capabilities of the human brain has been fixed long before this. At least 50k to 60k years ago. We can see this in the tools and art left from that age.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That doesn't mean that birds become humans.
Birds will never become humans. You forget that evolution is a tree-like diversification. Birds is one major branch of animals and Mammals is another distinct major branch of animals. They both emerge from an ancient race of reptilian-like animals around 200 million years ago, but once the branches diverge, they stay diverged... just like tree branches.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So, accordingly, as I understand it, birds stay birds, yes, I believe chimpanzees stay chimpanzees, and humans stay humans. I don't know too much about changes in chimpanzees (color of hair, eyes, things like that), but I do know that while humans stay humans, they integrate with genes transferring to make light or dark hair, sometimes the genes are recessive but come out in the individual, and so forth. I believe that populations produce distinct characteristics, but they do not become anything other than humans. To me, this is NOT evolution of the Darwinian kind. It is simple gene distribution. I appreciate your desire to explain, however, just as I am convinced that humans have not evolved in form from some unknown common ancestor, I am also convinced that chimpanzees (I use them as an example) will not evolve to something more or less than a chimpanzee, so the same holds for humans. They will stay humans. While I respect you, and appreciate your desire to help me, it's not like I cannot repeat or memorize what is being taught about evolution as a fact, I no longer believe all of it.
Human is a single species within mammalian family. A species can generate new species but that species will remain within the same family group. That's what evolution states. So while an ancient ape species did give rise to human (also within the ape family), humans continue to remain as one member of the ape family within the mamalian animal group. Humans are apes just like chimpanzees and gorillas.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Certainly, domestication of other animals (dogs, cattle, sheep, pigs, etc) had a huge effect on human culture and, to some extent, on genetics. New diseases had to be dealt with, for example.

The main problem with your scenario is that early humans were using tools and walking upright long before they domesticated dogs. Dogs were domesticated between 20,000 and 40,000 years ago, while tool use goes back well before our species appeared. Modern humans (genetically) existed 100-200,000 years ago and were making complex tools at that time.

I was not talking about domestic dogs. The scenario I spoke of involved wild dogs in the very beginning leading to the changes we see via fossils. Domestication of dogs is when humans began to lead the dogs due to selective breeding. We cannot domesticate wolves the same way. Domestic dogs are more compliant and dependent than wild dogs. Domestic dogs do not have the same instincts as wild dogs like the wolf.

Forming an alliance and learning from wolves, for example, would be very useful for the ape man, who had to leave an easy survival environment. Going north would add a lot of wild cards. They need the dogs running on all natural cylinders and not just a shell they can boss around make dysfunctional. These two natural species saw an advantage for themselves; nurturing each other.

Science and Evolution confuses the issue, since science uses a very shallow criteria for defining humans; DNA and bones. All you can get from bones and fossils is a shallow shell criteria.

I prefer define humans in terms of the human brain's operating system. This will define what is possible at any given point in time. If you have a ten year old computer with a current operating system, its capacity can appear beyond the same make and model with the original operating system. Civilization did not form until about 6000-10,000 years ago, because the operating system of the human brain was not yet advanced enough. There were many starts up in terms of early civilization 10,000 years ago. These all aborted. This was more than likely due to only a few people having the needed operating system. Once they passed or died, the rest of the pre-humans reverted back to instinct.

What needed to evolve and stick, for civilization to stick, was a secondary center of consciousness; ego, that could exist apart from instinct, and even override it. The bible calls this free will and choice when speaking of Adam and Eve. They had the new operating system, that made these humans different from the animals. I call the science based humans, before civilization, the pre-human in terms of the brain's operating system. They were human looking animals, but without a stable secondary center of consciousness for will and choice.

In the story of Cain and Abel, after Cain kills Abel, God threatens to expel him. Cain laments that whomever shall come upon him shall kill him. The question is who were these whomever, if Adam and Eve were the first humans and they only had one son, left? These whomever were the prehuman or the animal man.

Abel was the herder of animals; migratory prehuman, and Cain was a tiller of soil; farmer. This symbolism of killing Abel, shows farming superseding migratory herding; modern civilization appears. It also show this was not connected to DNA, entirely, since Abel retained his animal prehuman nature; migratory herder. Cain is given a talisman for protection from the pre-human friends of Abel. Cain goes on to reproduce with prehuman females ,since they had the same human DNA. Cain had the new operating system, and would pass this on to his children through teaching and nurture. He forms other cultures.

The one invention that appears to have been key to the needed upgrade in the operating system of the human brain, beyond the genetic nature of the pre-human, was the invention of writing and the alphabet. This invention is dated by science to be about 6000 years ago, which is also the bible estimate for the change in man. In the beginning was word and word was God. In the beginning refers to the new man with the new operating system. He was changed by the word, God.

What writing did was create a repression of natural instinct, that could also override the brain's natural instinct to forward integrate memory and experiences. Before writing, there was only spoken language. One had to learn from word of mouth. There were no study materials connected to writing; note taking and books.

This type of learning would not be reliable over the longer term. Civilization could start up, via inventors, but it would abort as the new generations forget how to maintain the critical things. Once writing appears, there is a way to review and override the natural inertia of memory. Civilization could stick.

Some early writing applications, like the original rules of good and evil, could over stay their welcome. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was a pivotal application of the invention of writing. Knowledge needs to evolve, but some early writing; like law, could cause knowledge to stagnate and become repressive; carved into stone. This may have been needed to spread the secondary to the entire population. As it is written so it shall be done.
 
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sealchan

Well-Known Member
Just released -- "Modern brains are younger than originally thought, possibly developing as recently as 1.5 million years ago, according to a study published Thursday -- after the earliest humans had already begun walking on two feet and had even started fanning out from Africa."
Like I say, what's a few million years change in evolution? After all, them's the facts (according to the many). Give or take a few million -- (who cares?)
Mind blown: Modern brains evolved much more recently than thought (msn.com)
More from this article:
"Scientists have been trying to solve a mystery for as long as our origin story has been known: Exactly when and where did the brain evolve into something that made us human?"
:)
(My, me oh my...!)

Are you trying to have a happy dance because you see this article as a challenge of some kind to science as a foundation of knowledge?
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
From what I read years ago, flies actually don't have brains, whereas reflexive decisions are actually made by the spinal cord, as ours does at times btw.

Sorry that I'm so anal. :(
They have a very rudimentary plexus that constitutes a brain. Roughly 100,000 or so neurons. Nothing so complex as even a simple reptile brain, but a brain still.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
That doesn't mean that birds become humans.
Why do you think evolution means that members of one class of organisms would suddenly transform into members of another class of organisms? What you are proposing is magic and not science. Certainly not evolution.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
Ok but these species are not evolving. As far as recorded history goes. I find it amazing that people put together dna from bone fragments or skulls and then determine these evolved from something else.
You should read up on the speciation in the cichlid superflock of Lake Victoria or speciation in Tragopogon in North America. Both are very vivid examples of evolution. In the case of cichlids, new genera have even arisen in as little as 15,000 years. Some of the fastest evolution ever recorded.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
What I find interesting is the development of Broca's area. My understanding is that this can be seen in some H. erectus specimens. I've also seen it suggested that the hyoid bone had fallen in H. erectus specimens, suggesting changes in throat anatomy supportive of language.

Language may well be the first step to more abstract thinking.
I read about this some years ago. The evidence indicates that the first abstract art was contrived by H. erectus half a million years ago.

<i>Homo erectus</i> made world's oldest doodle 500,000 years ago
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
So, accordingly, as I understand it, birds stay birds, yes, I believe chimpanzees stay chimpanzees, and humans stay humans. I don't know too much about changes in chimpanzees (color of hair, eyes, things like that), but I do know that while humans stay humans, they integrate with genes transferring to make light or dark hair, sometimes the genes are recessive but come out in the individual, and so forth. I believe that populations produce distinct characteristics, but they do not become anything other than humans. To me, this is NOT evolution of the Darwinian kind. It is simple gene distribution. I appreciate your desire to explain, however, just as I am convinced that humans have not evolved in form from some unknown common ancestor, I am also convinced that chimpanzees (I use them as an example) will not evolve to something more or less than a chimpanzee, so the same holds for humans. They will stay humans. While I respect you, and appreciate your desire to help me, it's not like I cannot repeat or memorize what is being taught about evolution as a fact, I no longer believe all of it.
Why are you convinced? How do you explain the fossil record, for instance, where a progression can be seen over time? What is the evidence that is convincing you?

You seem to have a poorly conceived concept of evolution that is not at all what is explained by the theory. This very thread seems to indicate that you consider the revision of a timeline of the development of a biological feature somehow means that science has failed and you can throw out anything that science has revealed on a subject that you subjectively deny based on a desire of belief and not on any actual evidence.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
That is what I thought. Here is what I read: "Oct 09, 2019 · A mule is the offspring of a male donkey (a jack) and a female horse (a mare). A horse has 64 chromosomes, and a donkey has 62. The mule ends up with 63. Mules can be either male or female, but, because of the odd number of chromosomes, they can’t reproduce." Question: Can You Breed A Male Horse To A Female Donkey? - Horse (mayonahorse.com)
I read further and see that in rare cases, some mules have reproduced. Not sure how these offsprings integrated in the general population, or if they did.
So I go back to chimpanzees, bonobos and that "unknown common ancestor." Again -- going back to walking fish. Tetrapods. It seems to me it would be highly unlikely, to the point of close to nil, that humans evolved by interbreeding. Mules can’t reproduce. Here’s the biological explanation why. | Belleville News-Democrat (bnd.com) (Do walking fish and regular fish interbreed? I don't know the answer yet. Perhaps they do? Getting late -- )
Why does it seem highly unlikely to you? What explanation do you have of just the progression of fossils from marine/aquatic (non-walking) vertebrates to later species such as Tiktaalik and then fossils of terrestrial species with legs that could walk?

Is this more of a question of a desire to read a book as a literal explanation of life as opposed to the reasonable acceptance of evidence and viewing as that book as allegory?
 
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