Agnosticism vs. Atheism

[Mr Spinkles]

That's "Spinkles". :mrgreen:

I didn't say you were being impolite. But some of your posts have bordered on making fun of the person, rather than the person's ideas themselves....and Deut. 32.8, your posts started out so cordial and friendly.

For example:

By the way, did you become humble before or after you chose your username?

As I said, I find evangelical taoism mildly humourous. It somehow brings to mind a picture of some constipated but otherwise cordial Lao Tzu.

Let me suggest a far easier koan, but one that could contain its share of enlightenment: what is the sound of off-topic pedantry from an Evangetical Taoist?

It is a debate, so tease away. I was only making a comparison between your first posts and your later ones. I don't disagree with your arguments, but perhaps some of your fiestiness just caught me off gaurd. :fight:

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So I do not believe that the gaps are shrinking.

Perhap, Master Vigil, for you they are not.

 

[Master Vigil]

Nor would they for a taoist. The universe is growing, therefore, the more we know the more there is out there to learn. And I believe that our knowledge will never catch up with the growing amount of the unkowable. There will always be more than we know. And that amount of what we do not know, I call Tao. And everything we do know, I call Tao. Everything you write, I call Tao. Everything I write, I call Tao. Everything you call science, I call Tao. Everything you call love, I call Tao. The Tao is everything, and it is nothing!! The Tao is in the beginning, and in the end. In dark, and in light. The Tao will always be there for us to learn from, to humble ourselves to, to never prove or disprove. The Tao, is TAO!!!!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The universe is growing, therefore, the more we know the more there is out there to learn.

First of all, the fact that the universe is expanding does not mean that the more we know the more there is to learn--this logic does not necessarily follow.

Secondly, your second statement is a big assumption. It's also possible that there is only so much to know about the universe, so the more we know the less there is to learn.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Tao is everything, and it is nothing!! The Tao is in the beginning, and in the end. In dark, and in light. The Tao will always be there for us to learn from, to humble ourselves to, to never prove or disprove. The Tao, is TAO!!!!

Oy vey - an Evangetical Taoist! There really is no need to shout. :mrgreen:

 

[Master Vigil]

I was only being a little too excited. And I was posting as I was listening to the Last Samurai Score. So it was playing on my emotions. I would like to know something though, deut, how do you feel about taoism? So far you have not given me a solid idea of even what religion you are.

Now let me calm my mind, and get back to where I should be... There we go, the Tao does not need me to evangelize for it, for it is not an object, but an essence. And this essence flows through, above, and beyond all things. I humbly say, what I do not know... is Tao. I what do know... is Tao.

My logic is simply that if the universe is expanding extremely fast, than there will be more things happening within it. Therefore, the more we learn, the more things happen to be learned about. So it is like a man running to catch a candy bar tied to his back and hung in front of his face, just out of reach. That is what I mean.

 

[Alaric]

My logic is simply that if the universe is expanding extremely fast, than there will be more things happening within it. Therefore, the more we learn, the more things happen to be learned about. So it is like a man running to catch a candy bar tied to his back and hung in front of his face, just out of reach. That is what I mean.

But expanding doesn't mean that more matter and energy is being created, it just means that things are getting further apart. It might even mean that the universe is a fixed size and that everything inside it is skrinking, creating the illusion that the universe is expanding. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[Master Vigil]

That is true alaric. Either way, we are never sure of our own perception. So if we someday find out what the universe is actually doing, we will have to figure out our perception then. And once we figure out our perception, everything else changes because our perception will be defunct. And once everything else changes, we will have to develop new methods of perception to perceive the new truth, but we will not be sure about that perception either, and then the cycle will start all over again.

 

[Alaric]

That was confusing...
If someday we find out what the universe is actually doing, it will be because we can describe it objectively, i.e. in a way that holds true no matter your perspective or means of perception. And until then, it doesn't matter whether the universe is shrinking or expanding unless you start building your beliefs on one or the other scenario with no justification. You claim to know what you don't know, but if you did, you wouldn't say what you're saying. You're a Taoist, and the Tao is that which you do not know, so you are one who practises the way of that which you do not know? Or are you one who speculates about the unknown in order to know? For example, you say the Tao causes balance but not only do you not know this (because it is unknowable), you also say that the universe is expanding, which seems like imbalance. You need to stake one variable down, and work from there. I think your use of the Tao is actually preventing you from appreciating the extent of humanity's ignorance.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Don't worry Master Vigil...even though everyone here has ganged up on you, and even though I disagree with you also, I'm still rooting for you.

Go Master Vigil! I hope he wins the debate even though he's outnumbered...root for the underdog!

:goodjob:

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Good evening, Master Vigil:

I was only being a little too excited. And I was posting as I was listening to the Last Samurai Score. So it was playing on my emotions.

Perhaps you should try Brahms.

I would like to know something though, deut, how do you feel about taoism?

Fine. I must admit, however, that I have a mild resistance to evangelical taoism. To zealously insist that 'X' is such and such because "Lao Tzu says so" strikes me as a little funny, particularly since some consider the work to be pseudepigraphical.

So far you have not given me a solid idea of even what religion you are.

None. In fact, I contemplate "None" daily.

Now let me calm my mind, and get back to where I should be...

The Tao tells you where you should be? Perhaps you should trade it in on a more accepting model.

There we go, the Tao does not need me to evangelize for it, for it is not an object, but an essence. And this essence flows through, above, and beyond all things. I humbly say, what I do not know... is Tao. I what do know... is Tao.

You know far too much to be a Taoist. By the way, did you become humble before or after you chose your username?

My logic is simply that if the universe is expanding extremely fast, than there will be more things happening within it. Therefore, the more we learn, the more things happen to be learned about.

But you've already acknowledged that this logic is flawed, which means that you now know even more than before. It seems as if I'll never catch up!

Either way, we are never sure of our own perception.

The zen koan says: eat your rice / wash your bowl - it says nothing about being sure of your perceptions of either. Wisdom is not the process of making things artificially obscure or inscrutable.

I'm sorry to tease you like this, Master Vigil. As I said, I find evangelical taoism mildly humourous. It somehow brings to mind a picture of some constipated but otherwise cordial Lao Tzu.

As least we agree that the is no conflict between atheism and agnosticism.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Go Master Vigil! I hope he wins the debate even though he's outnumbered...root for the underdog!

Hi, Mr_Spinkles. What are your views on "Agnosticism vs. Atheism"?

 

[Runt]

why do masters drink tea, and why do monkeys eat fruit?

Cuz it is their nature? I mean, stereotypically ALL Taoist masters drink tea, right?

 

[Master Vigil]

Well, it is in their nature right, we won't go into the stereotypical part. But the first part is very good. Now, why would the monkey get outraged when the master questioned the monkeys nature?

 

[Runt]

Cuz the master didn't question his own nature? Kinda hypocritical...

 

[Master Vigil]

Sort of, if he was sure of his nature, which he should of, than he should be sure of a monkeys nature. Now why would the monkey drink the tea? And why does that interfere with the masters understanding of his own nature?