African children horribly abused by Christian pastors

[Smoke]

African children denounced as "witches" by Christian pastors. HuffPo.

an increasing number of children in Africa accused of witchcraft by pastors and then tortured or killed, often by family members. Pastors were involved in half of 200 cases of "witch children" reviewed by the AP, and 13 churches were named in the case files.

​

Is anybody really even surprised?

 

[zenzero]

Friend Autodidact,

African children horribly abused by Christian pastors
African children denounced as "witches" by Christian pastors. HuffPo.

an increasing number of children in Africa accused of witchcraft by pastors and then tortured or killed, often by family members. Pastors were involved in half of 200 cases of "witch children" reviewed by the AP, and 13 churches were named in the case files.

It is obvious that Satan is in control of the churches there as god appears to be on long leave of absence?

Love & rgds

 

[Quagmire]

Seriously though, the reports like that in the OP are pretty disturbing. More disturbing is the lack of condemnation from evangelicals in the US associated with the churches that behave in such manner.

I agree. I think churches and Christian organizations in the developed countries are obligated to do something about this just because they could.

I would think that if the World Church Councel or United Pentecostal International were to start condemning these pastors and what they're doing it would make things a lot harder for them.

People, Christians, need to start putting pressure on their leaders and congregations to address---or at least acknowledge whats going on over there.

 

[idea]

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Exodus 22:18

JST, EXODUS 22:18 (compare Exodus 22:18)
(Murderers shall not live.)
1. Thou shalt not suffer a murderer to live.
(JST | Exodus 22:Entry - 1)
JST = Joseph Smith Translation...

 

[idea]

"Nwanaokwo Edet was one of an increasing number of children in Africa accused of witchcraft by pastors and then tortured or killed, often by family members."

It is family members who are doing this..

No as severe, but there was a case in NZ I heard about with the LDS church involving new converts, any time you convert it is going to be a new lifestyle, new way of doing things. children do not always understand what is going on, some of the converts were overtly disciplining their kids to try and quickly fit them into the Mormon norm - this is NOT what the converts were taught or told to do, hard situation.... it was not the leaders though...

don't know about the Africa case though, scary, horrible.

 

[Autodidact]

JST, EXODUS 22:18 (compare Exodus 22:18)
(Murderers shall not live.)
1. Thou shalt not suffer a murderer to live.
(JST | Exodus22:Entry - 1)
JST = Joseph Smith Translation...

Too bad Joseph Smith didn't know Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic or Koine Greek, and didn't think translating involved putting two rocks in a hat, or the rest of the world might consider it a translation too.

 

[blackout]

"Nwanaokwo Edet was one of an increasing number of children in Africa accused of witchcraft by pastors and then tortured or killed, often by family members."

It is family members who are doing this..

No as severe, but there was a case in NZ I heard about with the LDS church involving new converts, any time you convert it is going to be a new lifestyle, new way of doing things. children do not always understand what is going on, some of the converts were overtly disciplining their kids to try and quickly fit them into the Mormon norm - this is NOT what the converts were taught or told to do, hard situation.... it was not the leaders though...

don't know about the Africa case though, scary, horrible.

So who are these assinine pastors to accuse anyone of ANYTHING,
much less children. and of witchcraft. duh. ignoramuses all.
If THEY did not first do such an irresponsible and STUPID superstition raising thing,
amongst such a fanatically superstitious 'people',
these children would not have been put in such a dangerous and vulnerable position
in the first place.

Who the hell needs "leaders" like this?
Certainly not the children.

 

[idea]

Too bad Joseph Smith didn't know Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic or Koine Greek, and didn't think translating involved putting two rocks in a hat, or the rest of the world might consider it a translation too.

Actually, the Hebrew word is "poisoner"
Thou Shalt Not Suffer a Witch to Live...?

Which... or poinsoner?
"His" Bible (the KJV) was translated to keep Jamie-boy happy, so they translated the work chasaph - which is Hebrew for poinsoner - to mean "witch" instead... The real passage was about the disturbing crime of poinsonin in the Jewish community...

Even though Joseph did not know Hebrew, he got it right. He got quite a few things like that right - strange, considering he was a poor uneducated farm boy living out in the middle of nowhere...

 

[idea]

So who are these assinine pastors to accuse anyone of ANYTHING,
much less children. and of witchcraft. duh. ignoramuses all.
If THEY did not first do such an irresponsible and STUPID superstition raising thing,
amongst such a fanatically superstitious 'people',
these children would not have been put in such a dangerous and vulnerable position
in the first place.

Who the hell needs "leaders" like this?
Certainly not the children.

I agree - the pastors were horrible. I think that the family was horrible too. These kids are in a dangerous and vulnerable position no matter how you look at it. with or without the church, (and I am not trying to stand up for the EV's here) you get horrible stuff like this going on there, my Aunt does a lot of work over there...
stuff like: Female genital cutting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
they sell their daughters off, slavery still going on, etc. etc.

"For their part, the families are often extremely poor, and sometimes even relieved to have one less mouth to feed. Poverty, conflict and poor education lay the foundation for accusations, which are then triggered by the death of a relative, the loss of a job or the denunciation of a pastor on the make, said Martin Dawes, a spokesman for the United Nations Children's Fund."

Church's often adapt to the area in which they go. For example, while I was in south America, I went to a quote "Catholic" unquote church. Ha! Catholic? There was a preacher in the traditional black and white get-up, but that is where the similarities ended. Congregation members were dressed in animal skins, on drugs, worshipping the trinity of the "glacier, sky, and fire" dancing around ... LOL! My Catholic aunts were with me, we were all rather taken back. To their credit, this was during some sort of festival day (not a Christian holiday, one of their own). The point is, sometimes a church just wants to increase their numbers - they dunk someone in water, call them xyz (even though they are not) go into an area tell those there - we believe that too!!!! Only we call the glacier sky and fire, God, Jesus and HG, wow, you didn't know you were Catholic did you? and you end up with some weird mix of things...

The real problem is poverty and education. If there were no poverty, and people were educated, this would not be happening.

 

[Autodidact]

Actually, the Hebrew word is "poisoner"
Thou Shalt Not Suffer a Witch to Live...?

Yes, I'm sure all those scholars who have devoted their lives to studying ancient Hebrew, and who now translate it as "sorceress" in every modern translation, have no idea what they're talking about.

Even though Joseph did not know Hebrew, he got it right. He got quite a few things like that right - strange, considering he was a poor uneducated farm boy living out in the middle of nowhere...

Apparently not, according to those who actually know Hebrew. In fact, he was much further off than the KJV. Not at all strange, considering he knew nothing about it, and thought that a good way to translate something was to stare into his hat.

 

[dorsk188]

Actually, the Hebrew word is "poisoner"
Thou Shalt Not Suffer a Witch to Live...?

Apparently, the word "kashaph" was used in six (maybe seven?) places in the Tanakh. The root is disputed, some saying it is "herb using", others say it is related to the word for "whisper", such as an incantation. Either could relate to witchcraft, but only the first would indicate "poison".

I've looked for where to find these, but the only list I could find was in the link idea provided. At least one of these references is wrong (there is no 2 Samuel 9: 22). I don't see how Micah 5: 2 has any reference to kashaph, so I left it off the list. And I have no idea what book Eay. is. One of these may not actually have kashaph in the Hebrew, because other sources say that it occurs 5 times other than Exodus, but I found 6 from the list, and there were 10 listed, so grain of salt.

Hmm, let's see the context that "kashaph" was used. (Using the NIV, but I think it's pretty clear, because most of these have a clear context.) And yes, I did collect and quote these myself, and it was a pain.

Deuteronomy 18: 10-12
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.
Seems to be about sorcery to me, but I suppose you could claim that it was about poisoners (among all the other magic things). That's a bit of a stretch...

Daniel 2: 2
So the king summoned the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers and astrologers to tell him what he had dreamed. When they came in and stood before the king
Why would a king summon is magicians, enchanters, poisoners, and astrologers? Why would he have poisoners at all?!

2 Chronicles 33: 6
He sacrificed his sons in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD, provoking him to anger.
Ditto the Deut. quote, but it's definitely about sorcery. Poisoners is a stretch again.

Malachi 3: 5
So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the LORD Almighty.
Generic "bad thing". No relevant context.

Jeremiah 27: 9
So do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your interpreters of dreams, your mediums or your sorcerers who tell you, 'You will not serve the king of Babylon.'
Ditto the Dan. quote. Why would you be tempted to listen to your poisoners?

Nahum 3: 4
all because of the wanton lust of a harlot,
alluring, the mistress of sorceries,
who enslaved nations by her prostitution
and peoples by her witchcraft.
I'll shrug my shoulders on this one. I don't know what the original said, and I suppose it could go either way, but witchcraft seems more capable of enslaving a nation than poison does.

That's pretty definitive to me. "Poisoner" doesn't fit in at least 4 of these passages, and "Sorcerer" fits all of them. It seems clear to me. "Kashaph" obviously has something to do with magic, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with poisoning in any of these passages.

Thank you to idea for providing the website that allowed me to dismantle her argument. I have no idea where Reginald Scot gets his translation (which he also concedes is translated as witchcraft). He just seems to be asserting that he's right because someone else told him so, without much in the way of reasoning. Which is exactly what Fiona Broome (author of the website) is doing. Which is exactly what idea is doing. And yet none of them seem to have read the other uses of the word to see how it was used elsewhere.

EDIT: I just checked what the website was about that was hosting the error-riddled page.... It's a ghost-hunting website... Oh my...

 

[idea]

Sorry dorsk, have not been around in awhile, just got your PM ...

Apparently, the word "kashaph" was used in six (maybe seven?) places in the Tanakh. The root is disputed, some saying it is "herb using", others say it is related to the word for "whisper", such as an incantation. Either could relate to witchcraft, but only the first would indicate "poison".

Thanks for your research.

from: I'm going to visit my Christian Brother. Should I be afraid he is going to try and kill me for being Wiccan? - Yahoo! Answers


In the King James Version, the translation of Ex. 22:18 is:

"Thou Shalt not suffer a Witch to live."
The New International Version, (a contextual translation), has it as:

"Thou shalt not suffer a sorcerer to live."
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, it claims the word "witch" in hebrew as:

"3784 kashaph, a prim. root; prop. to whisper a spell, i.e. to inchant or practise magic:--sorcerer, (use) witch (-craft)."

However, in the Webster's New World Hebrew Dictionary, the term "kashaph", can be broken into two parts: a root word, "kash", meaning, "straw, herb, reed", and "hapaleh", or "casting, bringing down, using." Combined, these words translate into "using/casting herbs/straws/reeds" - one who uses herbs.

So a better translation is "one who uses/has knowledge of herbs".

Hebrew is a contextual language. Words can have a positive or negative meaning based upon context.

Kashaph is not the Hebrew term for witch. The Hebrew term for witchcraft is "keeshoof", meaning sorcery or magic. "Mekhash" means "to bewitch", and the term for a female who practices magic is "mekhashah", whereas the term for a male is "mekhashef", (the "ah" and "ef" suffix denoting gender.)

Note that none of these terms has a simular root to "kashaph". Therefore, the question is, why did a unrelated term like "kashaph" get mistakenly translated into "witch" ?? Easy, terms that denote "knowledge of herbs" have tended to get translated as "witchcraft" in theological writings for nearly 2000 years. I would not say this was malice, but rather simple ignorance.


--------------------------------------…

Now we get into the "to live" or "live" part. Strongs lists that word in Ex. 22:18 as:

"02421 chayah {khaw-yaw'} 1) to live, have life, remain alive, sustain life, live prosperously, live for ever, be quickened, be alive, be restored to life or health."

Again, let's look at the Webster's New World.

Since, "ch" does get changed into a "k" in Hebrew, we'll look up the word "khay", or "khayah". Webster's gives the definition as: "living, alive, living among, dwelling, being alive, being full of life."

According to the Hebrew, as backed up by a Hebrew dictionary, the phrase cited, Ex. 22:18, uses a negative context to refer to "one who uses herbs, dwelling/living among you" - i.e. you shall not allow someone who uses herbs in a negative manner, (poisoner), to dwell among you. Which is utterly unrelated to what the KJV says. If the original texts *meant* "witch" or "witchcraft", ("mekhashah" and "keeshoof"), then *why* did it NOT use the Hebrew terms for "witch" or "witchcraft" ?? Instead, the terms it used, being unrelated to "witch" or "witchcraft", were then *mistakenly* translated as "witch" and "witchcraft".

 

[logician]

Smiling missionaries have destroyed more cultures than any armies over the last couple of millinea. "ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS" can be very deadly.

 

[idea]

Witchcraft and divination in the Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
kashaph[2][3]; kashaph is of ambiguous meaning, being either from a root meaning mutter[4], or from a compound of the words kash (herb) and hapalah (using) - hence meaning herb user[5]. The Septuagint renders the same phrase as pharmakia (poison), so it may refer to magic potions[6]

 

[dorsk188]

Sorry dorsk, have not been around in awhile, just got your PM ...

No problem. Thanks for your response. (Didn't mean to seem impatient by PMing.)

Can you point me to the Joseph Smith translation of the other passages that I quoted? Their contexts seem to me to be very obviously "sorcery" related. If kashaph meant sorcery in those passages, what's different about the Exodus passage? You mention "positive and negative" meanings based on context. What's the difference in context between Exodus and the other 6 passages? Why didn't Smith "fix" these other passages (or did he)? Why does the official LDS website still use "witch" in their online Bible?

What you've done in your post is just change the font size of what you agree with but even this person (a hobbyist), only presents one source (Webster's New World) which I can't find online. Every Hebrew dictionary I find translates it to magic, sorcery, or witchcraft. For all we know, this person just translated kashaph based on the first of two definitions. Or Smith did the same thing.

I remember as a child looking up "Excelsior" in the dictionary (it's the common exclamation of a childhood hero of mine). Imagine my surprise when it said: "fine wood shavings, used for stuffing, packing, etc." The second definition (the intended one) was "onward, upward, etc." It seems to me that Smith (or the websites and anonymous sources you keep referencing) are most likely doing the same.

 

[dorsk188]

Witchcraft and divination in the Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
kashaph[2][3]; kashaph is of ambiguous meaning, being either from a root meaning mutter[4], or from a compound of the words kash (herb) and hapalah (using) - hence meaning herb user[5]. The Septuagint renders the same phrase as pharmakia (poison), so it may refer to magic potions[6]

Just putting the point you like in bold doesn't negate the other parts.

You're not answering my original point: the other uses of kashaph seem to be about sorcerers. Why are those uses about witchcraft, but this one is about poisoners?

 

[idea]

the other uses of kashaph seem to be about sorcerers.

All of the others could easily be conotated with the equiv of a "drug dealer" (AKA herbist) as a sorcerer.

 

[idea]

No problem. Thanks for your response. (Didn't mean to seem impatient by PMing.)

Can you point me to the Joseph Smith translation of the other passages that I quoted?

There is not a JST for the entire Bible. The point is, the witch trials etc. etc. were totally uncalled for. Also note the other point, another translation would render the verse:

thou shalt not allow a witch/poisoner to dwell among you...

ie - just cast them out of town (not kill them)
This thread is about people doing horrible things in the name of Christianity, when in fact, Christianity teaches no such thing.

OT vs. NT, NT is a whole new doctrine/teaching. Christians should follow Christ - NT... If they do not follow Christ, love your enemies etc. etc. then don't call them Christians.

 

[dorsk188]

All of the others could easily be conotated with the equiv of a "drug dealer" (AKA herbist) as a sorcerer.

all because of the wanton lust of a harlot,
alluring, the mistress of herbs,
who enslaved nations by her prostitution
and peoples by her drugs.


I'll grant you that kashaph is probably rooted in "herb user", but that doesn't mean "poisoner". Kings have them among their astrologers and enchanters.

But you're trying to tell me that "kashaph" means "murderer" (because that's what Smith wrote) in one case, but it means benign herbalists or dangerous witches and sorcerers in every other case it is used? Also, every modern theologian and biblical scholar is either wrong or for some reason refuses to change this obvious mistake?

Why wouldn't they change the text in updated NIV editions?

 

[dorsk188]

This thread is about people doing horrible things in the name of Christianity, when in fact, Christianity teaches no such thing.

Hehe....

Leviticus:

9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.

13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

14 " 'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.

And my favorite...

15 " 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

Hell of a bad day for the animal, huh?

OT vs. NT, NT is a whole new doctrine/teaching. Christians should follow Christ - NT... If they do not follow Christ, love your enemies etc. etc. then don't call them Christians.

Then it doesn't matter what Exodus says anyway, does it?

Just to be clear: You're saying that "Christians don't do bad things because if you do bad things then you're not really a Christian". Your logic is a perfect circle.