Affirmative Action

[Mr Spinkles]

Here's my take: if you look at the issue with a group mentality (i.e. blacks vs. whites vs. hispanics etc.) you could argue that affirmative action is fair, as it evens the playing field and attempts to 'make up' for past discrimination.

On the other hand, if you look at affirmative action with an individual mentality (i.e. John vs. Lanita vs. Pablo etc.) affirmative action is most definitely unfair, as Pablo might get hired for the job even though John is more qualified, simply because Pablo belongs to a group.

Perhaps part of the reason some whites resent affirmative action is because they lack the group mentality required to see that it is fair in some ways (besides the KKK, few whites consider themselves part of 'white America' or refer to 'white rights'). I do not see myself as a 'white person' I just see myself as 'me'. I am distinct and unique, and to classify me as part of a larger group who share a similar ethnicity would be to devalue my individuality. I do not think of my friend Melanie as 'my black friend' I simply think of her as my friend, Melanie.

So it is easy to see how difficult it would be for someone with an individual mentality to accept the fairness of affirmative action, since it discriminates based on race (hence the so-called 'reverse discrimination').

And now I will open up the floor for some discussion......

 

[Fra.Morelia]

the white male is the new victim, that simple. i suppose one can talk about what goes around comes around or something, but it sucks to be us.

 

[Runt]

I wouldn't quite go as far as to say that the white male is a "victim"... in my opinion what is happening right now is not so much reverse discrimination, but the removal of certain "white privileges": the rights, privileges, and opportunities that whites never actually EARNED, but obtained simply by being members of the dominant majority... things that we don't even think about, things that we take for granted, things we don't even think twice about even in our "racially aware" society.

Taking privileges away that we came to expect as our "due" may seem like reverse discrimination... and for a little while it may actually be that way. However, there is a reason for those quotas: the number of educated members of minorities vs members of the majority being admitted into colleges is not proportionate to the number of total educated members of the majority to total educated members of the minorty. Until that ratio becomes proportionate NATURALLY (i.e. without the need for quotas), whites will just have to "deal" with reverse discrimination.

Besides, we STILL enjoy more privileges than our black and hispanic counterparts:

"I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

Whether I use checks, credit cards, or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals,the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race.

I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to "the person in charge," I will be facing a person of my race.

If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

I can easily buy posters, postcards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having coworkers on the job suspect that I got it because of race.

I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

If my day, week, or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it has racial overtones." http://www.utoronto.ca/acc/events/peggy1.htm

 

[Fra.Morelia]

i could not agree more with the removal of unwarrented privlages. i just want to know, what with all the agonizing yowling about equality, why they are giving these privlages to others. hardly equal. we find ourselves in mortal dread of saying the wrong thing and losing our jobs while our co workers can say whatever they want about us. i became a rascist when i espoused pride in my Irish heritage. that was white supremacy. working for the governmanet, i am not aloud to be vocal in my pride in my heritage, lest someone decide that i don't deserve it and take my rank from me because i love my family and my heritage. that's just plain jacked. i have been called a cracker, a honkey, and numerous other epithets to foul to say here. and all my superiors said was that i had to understand where he was coming from.
i adore you and your commentary runt, but it really does suck to be us right now.
what i want to see is EQUALITY, not enforced tolerance. what they ar doing is this:breeding a new era of resentment and intolerance. by kicking our legs out from under us, they are ticking a LOT of us off. men i know who were incredibly tolerant have started to seethe with racial tension. i would say it is not working, and thus should be stopped.

 

[Runt]

I agree with you... I want to see equality rather than enforced tolerance... the problem is that how else can their be equality? We have tried to ignore racial issues in the hopes that they would "go away". They didn't. We have tried to incorproate "other cultures" into "our" artistic heritage; all that created was even more of an "us" vs "them" atmosphere. Any movie or commercial that features an African American gets a reputation for either being marketed just for that group, or for TRYING to break the barriers of race by shoving people other than whites into the mass media. The effects of such a thing are slow, and minimal. But that doesn't mean we are going to stop; that would be wrong. At least there is small progress while we try to force everyone to be tolerant; if we stopped THAT,

So what are we trying now? We are trying to strip whites of the privileges that we have always regarded as our undeniable rights. While this does help the targeted populations, it also serves another, less desirable function. It angers whites, once again driving the wedge between "us" and "them".

But what other option do we have? Which situation do you think will produce true equality faster? Ignoring race issues in the hopes that everyone will just "forget" that they ever thought of one another as different (we become aware of race the moment we learn about slavery in elementary school) and in the meantime allowing inequality to fester while we pretend that it will simply "go away"? Or make actual attempts to lessen inequality, even if it temporarily disadvantages the majority?

 

[Fra.Morelia]

Well, the mingling of our youth is the only real hope we have. true tolerance is a pipe dream. there are always going to be fools.on both sides. the youth culture is leaning heavily towards black culture, even for white youth. i personally think it is cultural rape, but it may still be our only hope. hell it scares me more than anything, not because white kids are 'acting black' but because we are assimilating theri culture and thus stripping it of much of ti's heart. the whole situation is simply twisted beyond belief. ignoring it may not fix it, but some one wiser than me needs to do something because affirmative action is destroying what small progress we had.

 

[Runt]

I agree, assimilation is a scary thing. It is like... culture becomes mass produced. A whole other kind of steriotype. Like Irish culture, I have to admit. "Drinking and fighting" -- a lot of the youth of today look at Irish culture as just that. They ignore everything else and only take what is ALREADY prominant in our culture, rather than relishing true NEW cultural influences.

 

[Fra.Morelia]

indeed. the stereotyping is brutal. the irish are suppossed to drink and fight, so they drink and fight. but we are also poets, warriors, and dancers with few peers. tho i confess i cannot dance and reserve it for whe I am cleaning my room to Duran Duran or something equally cheesy.

 

[Runt]

LOL, I'm even cheesier... I DO Irish dance!

 

[Fra.Morelia]

D'oh! hush! they'll hear you. then they'l be dancing whilst drinking and fighting....

 

[Mr Spinkles]

However, there is a reason for those quotas: the number of educated members of minorities vs members of the majority being admitted into colleges is not proportionate to the number of total educated members of the majority to total educated members of the minorty. Until that ratio becomes proportionate NATURALLY (i.e. without the need for quotas), whites will just have to "deal" with reverse discrimination.

If that is the case, wouldn't it only be fair to apply affirmative action to professional sports and entertainment industries? There are way fewer whites in these areas than in the population at large.

 

[painted wolf]

I feel that affirmitive action was a nessisary step in promoting civil rights.
Has it gone too far in some cases? Yes.
Is it so broken that it has to be thrown out? I don't think so, I think it can be fixed but that it will take a lot of effort and debate.

dispite the seeming inequity that the white male faces today it is still slight compaired to the inequity faced by other minorities in their day to day lives. Not that this makes what white males face ok, I just think that it may be a bit of an exageration on the part of the white male.

Idealy what affirmitive action is supposed to do is give the minorities a far chance at compeating with whites. Ie they are judged on thier merrits not thier ethnicity. I personlly think that race should be left out of the decision making process and eveyone should be judged by merit alone. Unfortunatly that isn't always possible. Raceism however subtle (blacks are good at sports, Natives make good mascots, Jews run Hollywood, ect set) is still with us and must still be fought against.

just my 2 cents.

wa:do

 

[Fra.Morelia]

I haven't oppressed anyone. end of story. thus, no matter how slight it seems, I have done nothing to bring this upon my own head. My family came over from Ireland and Italy less than a century ago, and wee every bit the minority and second class citizen anyone else can lay claim to in that time.
I can cry at great length about how this that or the other was done to my people. I don't. I care about what is being done to us, which is nothing less the a systematic devaluaization of our culture. is our culture more important than any other? no. does it possess the same rights as any othr? yes. affirmative action did what it needed to do, and now it either needs to be fixed or done away with. right now the cure has become the killer.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I agree somewhat with Fra.Morelia (by the way, I plan to read "How the Irish Saved Civilization" over the summer).

I am not racist, and neither is my family--we came over on a boat from Germany just as WWI broke out, and my forefathers were treated as second-class citizens as well (you can imagine the animosity towards Germans during WWI and II). The idea that it is only right for me to be treated unfairly because of how whites treated others unfairly in the past is kind of silly....reminds me of 'original sin'.

I think what truly makes a person disadvantaged nowadays is their socio-economic status, not their race. Perhaps affirmative action was a good idea, I just do not think it should continue indefinitely.

 

[Alaric]

I think it's better just to get rid of the whole thing. Discrimination in any form should never be an option, it just perpetuates the idea that it's reasonable to classify people based on their colour. If there's a problem, then they need to improve poor neighbourhoods and all that.

It's so lame that argument for discrimination that universities benefit from a racial mix - I assume blacks in America don't have a different culture than whites? If they're underrepresented because they're more likely to be poor, then why don't they focus on giving poorer kids better opportunities to study? Here in Denmark, university is free (with some exceptions), and we even receive a monthly stipend for five years. If you live frugally, you can make do without ever having to get a job or take a loan at all.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

It's so lame that argument for discrimination that universities benefit from a racial mix - I assume blacks in America don't have a different culture than whites?

Yes, blacks in America do have a distinct culture (though in my opinion, the actual cause of this cultural nowadays is income, not race).....it used to be a respectable culture, too, until it was hijacked by corporations who glamorize pimping and drug dealing.

Although I do agree with you in general, Alaric, I think the specific argument for discrimination that universities benefit from a racial mix is a valid one. The question is, how much discrimination of one group is worth lessening the discrimination of others?

 

[painted wolf]

Mr. Spinkles-

SOME blacks have a distinct culture (I would say then, there are several different 'black cultures just as there are several 'white cultures')... not all, many are happy to just be ordinary americans. Some Whites also try to fit into the black culture (though not very successfully).

And it depends on what you consider culture. They speak the same language (Ebonics aside) they go to the same schools, they hold the same jobs, they go to the same churches, they dress the same, they play the same, they live the same as the rest of us. Minor details varry from place to place and ecconomic bracket to ecconomic bracket. But I could argue that, that is a consiquence of ecconomics and geography.

Alaric-

It is a bit of a lame excuse, but up here in the predominatly anglo New Hampshire, it may be the first time any of the whites have to interact with people of other races. I'm personally glad that my local univercity encourages minority attendance, its nice to find a town that has a racial mix rather than the whitewashed norm you find up here. (at least for a few months out of the year.)
Eventually many decide that they like it here and choose to stay perminatly as members of the community. Not only has this helped us to become ethnically diverce but it helps the kids learn that their really is no difference between the races. (a fact that while easy to tell kids, is harder for them to learn without acutal experience.)

It amazes me how easy it is for white people in certen areas of the country to go thier whole lives without ever seeing another race except in movies/TV. Raceism thrives on ignorance, remove the ignorance and Raceism will die off.

Untill I went to collage I had only seen black people twice (tourists) and only seen asians because they ran a chinese food place in the neighboring town. I hadn't seen a single Hispanic person untill collage. Eaven still, my collage is predominatly white anyway.

wa:do

 

[Alaric]

Yeah, I figured it was more like how you describe it, PW, but even that seems to be stretching it. Surely a white Texan and a black Texan would be much closer culturally than a black Texan and a black New Yorker? There might be a slight tendency for young people to identify more with role models who look more like them, but for everyone of one colour across a country as huge and diverse as the US to unite and have the same religion, values, social attitudes etc (which is what culture is about) seems ridiculous.

 

[Fra.Morelia]

Actually, my money is on the two black people having more in common. not always true, but on the whole, yea I would say it is likely. I view myself, for the record, as an American. I also view every black man in this country, as an American. divisivness has never done anything good, and it is not going to do anything good now.
I am not Irish american or Italian american, I am American. I just know where my people came from and respect the history and tradition. I find the whole African American Hispanic American thing highly silly, it makes iit sound like white people are the only plain old Americans. that is a bad way to handle things.

 

[UberKinder]

affirmative action is a full body cast when all our nation needed was a band-aid. If i can be hired because of my race isn't that the same as what affirmative action was trying to end? i'm black and i have never been denied anything because of race, furthermore i have never taken anything provided for black people , I abhor the NAACP and what it repersents : the fear of a second class citizenry, that demands all america make up for the mistakes of generations ago? why try and hold the door for me when there is someone more qualified?

personally, i say let everyone get it on their own, there is too much mediocracy as it is. if you fall short , shut up , improve , and try agian

if somehting negative happens , why would anyone look for racial ovdertones? like i have alot of former friends with this issue, if you don't want race to be the deciding factor then don't look for it in every bad situation.

i say abolish affirmative action and make more decisive consequences for people who indulge in the social disease , black , brown, yellow, red, or white, male or female, hindu or muslim, christian or athiest or existentialist. equality period.