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Advaita vs Dvaita who is right ?

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi said that both the path of surrender, and the path of knowledge, are both valued methods to realize God. Both philosophies are just intellectual frameworks of reality. So both are not 100% true.

The great saints Sri Chaitanya and Mirabai talked about being lost in the love of Krishna. It is said that they disappeared in to a Murti of Krishna at the end of their lives.

Advaita sages talk of their ego's being lost in Brahman. The Atman is Brahman.

Is what you believe and how you conceptualize reality more important then your experience of being lost in God ?

Maybe both side's are correct in there own way ?
 
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Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
I was brought up with a very dualistic conception of reality and saw God only in the personal feature. The more I have explored ideas and thought about life through my experiences, the more I am pulled to believing that God is both personal and impersonal and that the individual is both part of the whole but distinctly individual. This is not a realisation, but it makes most sense to me. Whatever I think about, I always come back to Love. It seems to me that love it at the essence of everything. I may not understand God, but whatever reality is, I think that Love is at the core of it. I cannot help but seeing it behind every action and every aspect of life.

So for these reasons I at least cannot ignore the path of Bhakti, which seems most real to me, and the philosophy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
 

Andal

resident hypnotist
I believe God is both personal and impersonal. In order to be complete he would have to be both. For myself, I agree with Madhuri, love is the most important thing. I think some people need the impersonal, advaita stuff while others need the personal. I need the personal (i'm not dvaita though) but I recognize the impersonal as well.

If any of this makes sense :)

Aum Hari Aum!
 

Satsangi

Active Member
Impersonal and personal God DO NOT translate automatically to Advaita and Dvaita respectively.

When Mirabai and Sri Chaitanya dissolved "their self" into Shri Krishna's love; they entered the Advaita state (oneness with God). They understood the human body Lord Krishna as "Nirgun."

Similarly an Advaita follower who is in initial stages of spiritual path does not really have "oneness with God" and so he is not in "oneness" or Advaita state.

Regards,
 
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Impersonal and personal God DO NOT translate automatically to Advaita and Dvaita respectively.

When Mirabai and Sri Chaitanya dissolved "their self" into Shri Krishna's love; they entered the Advaita state (oneness with God). They understood the human body Lord Krishna as "Nirgun."

Similarly an Advaita follower who is in initial stages of spiritual path does not really have "oneness with God" and so he is not in "oneness" or Advaita state.

Regards,

Respectfully I must disagree with your idea of Caitaniya having dissolved Himself in the advaita state. I accept bhakti as the supreme goal in all of existence and not just a means to an end such as dissolution into Krishna's effulgence, the impersonal Brahman. Sadhana bhakti properly understand and practiced under the quidance of an experienced Vaisnava reaches it's zenith in Suddha or pure Bhakti.

Bhakti is eternal.

Hare Krishna
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Respectfully I must disagree with your idea of Caitaniya having dissolved Himself in the advaita state. I accept bhakti as the supreme goal in all of existence and not just a means to an end such as dissolution into Krishna's effulgence, the impersonal Brahman. Sadhana bhakti properly understand and practiced under the quidance of an experienced Vaisnava reaches it's zenith in Suddha or pure Bhakti.

Bhakti is eternal.

Hare Krishna

What is the meaning of Mirabai becoming One and leaving her body in the murti of the Lord Krishna.
 

Andal

resident hypnotist
What is the meaning of Mirabai becoming One and leaving her body in the murti of the Lord Krishna.

I always took it as Mirabai dissolving the physical body so that she could enter the eternal leela of Sri Krishna.

I do not take advaita as being the ultimate experience just as I'm sure advaitans do not take bhakti and saguna as being the conclusion to their path.

Aum Hari Aum!
 

Satsangi

Active Member
Respectfully I must disagree with your idea of Caitaniya having dissolved Himself in the advaita state. I accept bhakti as the supreme goal in all of existence and not just a means to an end such as dissolution into Krishna's effulgence, the impersonal Brahman. Sadhana bhakti properly understand and practiced under the quidance of an experienced Vaisnava reaches it's zenith in Suddha or pure Bhakti.

Bhakti is eternal.

Hare Krishna

I did not say that Sri Chaitanya dissolved in the effulgence of Lord Krishna. What I meant was hat while doing Bhakti too, there comes a dissolution of the ego of the devotee and at that time only the Murti of the God remains; nothing else exist for the devotee- not even himself. This is what I call the "Advaita state of Bhakti".

Regards,
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
This is what I call the "Advaita state of Bhakti".
,
This is a good point. Advaita is not without devotion in my humble opinion. One might say Advaita is attractive to the western mentality because it does not begin with the presumption of faith or knowledge of God. It begins with self investigation often with study etc (Jñana Yoga).

The path can lead to devotion and bhakti (or perhaps not for some), however it can be without a the dualistic sense of "I see myself worshiping Him" rather it is devotion in being itself, like silence without interuption of thoughts, or lost in song and dance.

Dvaita may begin for some with bhakti, in that the worshiper acknowledges God(s) as more ominpotent, omisciente and omnipresent than oneself i.e. the worshiper is seperate to God. The point I see being made in this thread is that even that worship at some point will come to know only union with God, albeit through the action of worship. This too can be expressed without a sense of "I am doing", that I becomes lost in the "doing" e.g. lost in dance and song or meditation without me. In Dvaita or Bhakti I would say that there is not this expection mentioned above, rather the act of worship itself is all that needs to be considered, hence how repeated ritural holds a meditative value.

These are just some thoughts only. :)
 
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Metempsychosis

Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi said that both the path of surrender, and the path of knowledge, are both valued methods to realize God. Both philosophies are just intellectual frameworks of reality. So both are not 100% true.
Maybe both side's are correct in there own way ?

Both Dvaita and Advaita are true.I am currently studying advaita. Though the advaita has loopholes which can be misused , it is one that brings out the best from the Upanishads.Advaita sees oneness within a contradiction,whereas Dvaita sees the difference.For Advaita,Dvaita as an essential step towards the Goal.Moreover the adviatic realization is considered to be negation of both Dvaita and Advaita concepts(because it is state of no-concepts).Many saints like Ramakrishna ,Vivekananda,Ramana Maharishi were advaitins at their core,yet they were very liberal in accepting others.

The great saints Sri Chaitanya and Mirabai talked about being lost in the love of Krishna. It is said that they disappeared in to a Murti of Krishna at the end of their lives.

Advaita sages talk of their ego's being lost in Brahman
.

They were great saints who followed bhakti path.Vedantic Sutras are themselves are open to multiple interpretations so bashing each other's philosophies is great a waste of time (for me).Hinduism is what it means to you,as long it does not harm others and helps in reducing ones "ego",any philosophy is fine.

The Atman is Brahman.
.

There are two interpretation for this Mahavakya.

1. Unique Identity:

Atman is Brahman; Nothing else is Brahman; Brahman is reality and therefore everything else is illusion

-----I consider this to be true in super conscious turiya state.There is one homogenous consciousness ,with nothing to seperate the atman and brahman

2. Universal Identity:

Atman is Brahman in the same way as everything else is Brahman.

----I think this true in the waking state especially for non-realised people like me.

The most important statement in Advaita(which when misunderstood leads to ego-boasting) is this:

The patient who takes (the proper) diet and medicine is alone seen to recover completely – not through work done by others.

Without causing the objective universe to vanish and without knowing the truth of the Self, how is one to achieve Liberation by the mere utterance of the word Brahman ? -- It would result merely in an effort of speech.

Without killing one’s enemies, and possessing oneself of the splendour of the entire surrounding region, one cannot claim to be an emperor by merely saying, ‘I am an emperor’.

As a treasure hidden underground requires (for its extraction) competent instruction, excavation, the removal of stones and other such things lying above it and (finally) grasping, but never comes out by being (merely) called out by name, so the transparent Truth of the self, which is hidden by Maya and its effects, is to be attained through the instructions of a knower of Brahman, followed by reflection, meditation and so forth, but not through perverted arguments.

--Adi Sankara

Dvaita considers itself to be a breaker of deception.
yo vipralambhaviparItamatiprabhUtAn.h
vAdAnnirastakR^itavAn.h bhuvi tattvavAdam.h |
sarveshvaro haririti pratipAdayantaM
Ana.ndatIrthamunivaryamahaM namAmi ||
That doctrine which quells all positions arising out of ignorance and deceit, is Tattvavâda;
Ananda Tîrtha, the august among saints, who propounded the Supremacy of Hari over all, I salute.

The Dvaita doctrine completely criticizes both advaita and Prabupada Hare Krishna philosophy

Is what you believe and how you conceptualize reality more important then your experience of being lost in God ?


Its fine if conceptualization helps in single pointed meditation.But again concepts are concepts.

Among Vaishnava Sect ,Vishist-advaita is nice.It lends itself to a better interpretation of Bhagavat Gita.IMHO,advaita helps to understand other Dharmic religions and esoteric sects of Abrahamic religion better.Moreover,I don't consider myself to be suited towards Bhakti.Hence,my choice.
 
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godrealized

Man who Realized God
Wannabe Yogi... the path of bhakti yoga... path of religion... path of rituals never takes one to abode of God! It is only through path of jnana yoga (absolute wisdom) human beings finally reached God Almighty... gained enlightenment (kaivalya jnana) in their lifetime! Why?

Both Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa and Maharishi Ramana started in search of God via path of bhakti yoga. Significantly both switched to path of jnana yoga (absolute wisdom) and finally reached God in their lifetime... the only two persons world over who gained enlightenment in the last about 150 years!

The path of Advaita propagated by Adi Shankaracharya is without a flaw! God Almighty is one and only one! The concept of Dvaita put forward by Madhavacharya is flawed in the sense that soul atman is considered distinct form Brahman... Parmatman! How can that be? When simple definition of God Almighty is... the cluster of all purified souls atmans in the cosmos at a given point of time... how can souls atmans be distinct from Brahman?

Bhagavad Gita as of today is considered the foremost of all sacred scriptures... the prime reason why oath in Indian courts is taken placing a hand on Bhagavad Gita! The Advaita Vedanta concept of Adi Shankaracharya emanated from Bhagavad Gita... one scripture without a single iota of doubt or impurity!
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Both Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa and Maharishi Ramana started in search of God via path of bhakti yoga. Significantly both switched to path of jnana yoga (absolute wisdom) and finally reached God in their lifetime... the only two persons world over who gained enlightenment in the last about 150 years!

How do you know this. Have you talked to every person who was born in the last 150 years and tested them to see if they are enlightened?
 

Metempsychosis

Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
How do you know this. Have you talked to every person who was born in the last 150 years and tested them to see if they are enlightened?

BTW.I dont know how Sri Madhavacharya's dvaita introduced eternal damnation(hell) into Hinduism .Do you think they have any basis from the Shruti?I abhor that concept actually...:eek:
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
BTW.I dont know how Sri Madhavacharya's dvaita introduced eternal damnation(hell) into Hinduism

Did you know Madhava's followers beheaded 5000 Jains because they were Atheists. I do not need to study Madhava. I see him as a product of the Islamic conquest of Indian. Maybe there was a need of a simple world view in Hinduism to keep it alive. Who knows ?

I ignore Madhavacharya. There were many Great Bhakti saints who showed the devotional path to God who were basically dualists.So I don't need to study the works of that acharya
 
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Metempsychosis

Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
Did you know Madhava's followers beheaded 5000 Jains because they were Atheists. I do not need to study Madhava. I see him as a product of the Islamic conquest of Indian. Maybe there was a need of a simple world view in Hinduism to keep it alive. Who knows ?
I did not know this.How did you come to know about this?


IMHO,dualism tends to be intolerant mostly...And I dont believe it is posssible to interpret Upanishads in completely dualistic manner.Upanishads always have a message of Unity as a common thread.

I ignore Madhavacharya. There were many Great Bhakti saints who showed the devotional path to God who were basically dualists.So I don't need to study the works of that acharya
I know of Swami Raghavendra Tirta , a Madhava follower and a very great sage.

Om namah Sivay!!!:)
 
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Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
I did not know this.How did you come to know about this?

Klostermaier's college text book A Survey of Hinduism I gave my copy to a friend so I can't give you an exact quote.

Klostermaier is one of the best western scholars. ( He even rejects the Aryan Invasion.) I tend to trust him. His text book is the most widely used college text book on Hinduism in America.
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
BTW.I dont know how Sri Madhavacharya's dvaita introduced eternal damnation(hell) into Hinduism .Do you think they have any basis from the Shruti?I abhor that concept actually...:eek:

This is not the Translation I use ( it's just to easy to cut and paste) but this is why some talk of eternal Hell.

Bhagavad Gita

16:16. Lost in many intentions, entangled in the net of lie, yielded to satisfaction of their worldly passions they go the hell of the wicked.

16:17. Self-conceited, obstinate, full of pride, and intoxicated by wealth they perform hypocritical sacrifices in disregard of the spirit of the Scriptures.

16:18. Indulging in egoism, violence, arrogance, lust, and anger they hate Me in other bodies.

16:19. These haters, full of evil and cruelty, I always cast into adverse, demonic conditions in the next births.

16:20. Appearing in these demonic conditions, get enshrouded by ignorance life after life, aspiring not to Me, they go to the very bottom of the abyss.


I don't see this as teaching an eternal Hell. Some twist the meaning after the foreigners conquered India. It is a new belief in Hinduism.
 
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