Acts 2:38 Baptism of the Holy Spirit

[sincerly]

The heretics were the ones who insisted that the Gentiles had to follow the Mosaic Law if they wanted to be saved.

Those were the "Jewish believers" who couldn't turn loose of those"traditions" which Jesus fulfilled---circumcision and the Ceremonial and sacrificial laws. (NOT the TEN COMMANDMENTS.)

Who was persecuted for keeping the Sabbath holy? The only ones who cast themselves out of the Church for keeping the Sabbath were the Judaizers who demanded that strict adherence to the Mosaic Law was the only way to be saved.

Again, at that Acts 15 council there was NO dispute concerning the seventh day SABBATH, James acknowledged its validity. vs.21, For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. "
When the Gospels were written many years after the Resurrection, the seventh day Sabbath was still recognized as valid. (Luke 23:56), "And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment."
Those who continued to hold the Sabbath Sacred didn't "cast themselves out of the Church", that was done by this council previously cited. "Sabbath, change of, Action of Council of Laodicea on [aboutA,D.364]"

So what, Jesus' Resurrection on the first and eighth day doesn't count for anything?

Jesus Christ only arose on the first day of the week and because HE resurrected---all who believe in that act made for the Redemption of mankind are assured that they too will resurrect at HIS Coming.
However, it doesn't count nor give any authority for changing GOD'S SABBATH LAW.(One of the Decalogue)

This is a translation I was able to find, which gives the Eusebius quote that you cited:

And all things whatsoever that it was duty to do on the sabbath [Jewish seventh day,] these we have transferred to the Lord’s day,... Wherefore it is delivered to us [paradodotai, it is handed down by tradition,] that we should meet together on this day ; and it is ordered that we should do those things announced in this Psalm.
​

Why do you think converts are educated about the Faith and the nature of the Sacraments before being admitted into the Church through Holy Baptism, Chrismation and Communion?

Just As I posted. The change came by the "councils of men" via "their man made Traditions".
No matter the lame reasoning supplied, the Change was done at the "Thinking of mankind" and fulfilled the Prophecy. It is still a false sabbath(day of worship) according to Scripture.

You used "dollars" as an illustration previously. Let's give another. It doesn't matter how well a convert is instructed when the instruction are false/counterfeit. Bad Dollars will not be accepted by the Bank----Nor will one trusting in false teaching get through the Gates into Heaven.

Constantine didn't change crap, hate to break it to you.
There was no "buzz off" because everyone knew that Constantine didn't call the shots on what days the Church kept as holy.

History says differently. So Constantine, just brought th empire to worshiping on the First day of the week by that decree he made Mar.7, 321 A.D.? (i.e.) with the ECF's already willing the change GOD's appointed Sabbath Day to the venerable day of the sun?

Christ's Resurrection is even more significant than God resting on the seventh day. We're saved in Christ's Resurrection, and that Resurrection marks the beginning of the renewal of the human race.

Disobedience to the Decalogue is Sin and punishable by Death. One cannot Obey and continue in disobedience. Cain found that fact to be True---The Scriptures continue to give examples which followed will keep one on the right side of GOD'S GRACE.

And those were all instructions in preparation of the New Covenant. Once the New Covenant instituted by Jesus came, the Old Covenant was no longer necessary, since Jesus fulfilled it in its entirety.

another topic.

 

[e.r.m.]

Strange! Of course you and your group have that freedom given by GOD to believe or distort anything you choose which is in the Bible.
Your
BY WHAT? The rest of that sentence was "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".
So in your reasoning The Resurrection of Jesus Christ from Death and the Tomb symbolizes the act of baptism.
The language "in like figure" and "like as" and "likeness of" have no informative value/descriptive value????

The like figure is water from the flood toward baptism. That is the informative value. The informative value of baptism's purpose representing something is non-existent.

No scriptural leg to stand on.

 

[sincerly]

The like figure is water from the flood toward baptism. That is the informative value. The informative value of baptism's purpose representing something is non-existent.

No scriptural leg to stand on.

e.r.m., All who didn't get aboard the ARK ---drowned/died/didn't live because of the "waters". Yes, one is baptized in "water", but the "like figure" was all who will be "saved out of this world" will be those who are "in Christ Jesus".(as in the Ark)
1Pet.1:18-25 declares that one is only "Redeemed" by the Blood of Jesus Christ. Peter doesn't contradict himself in the next two chapters, but you have misinterpreted the message of Peter. The Scriptures continue to be TRUE/RIGHT.

 

[sincerly]

Shiranui, here is that quote of yours concerning baptism and Jesus' Blood.

Yes, we obtain remission of sins through the blood of Jesus. What I've been trying to tell you ever since I came into this topic is that baptism is the means by which we are washed with the blood of Jesus.

The only way that can happen is symbolically as was the "bulls and Goats" sacrificed and stated as "shadows" of Jesus Christ being the real image. Therefore, again--symbolically.--just as the meaning of "in like figure" and "like as".

And yes, I understand the doctrine of "trans-substantiation"---as applied to the bread and cup of "communion".(which is another topic---and false; Therefore, don't try to apply that doctrine of changing the "water of Baptism into the "real blood of Jesus".

Baptism is agreeing with Jesus, but it's also the way in which we obtain that grace.

It is the "real thing" that makes the "symbolic" of value---not the other way around.(vise-versa).
GOD the Father's Grace was given for the Believing upon the Done Actions/ fulfilled missions of the SON not a substitute.(Remember Cain?)
"The devils, also, believe and tremble". (James 2:19)

Remember, just as with money, there is no obtaining with counterfeit beliefs.

Yes, it is symbolic. But it is also more than mere symbolism. It is real participation in what is represented, and we are given grace by and through our baptism, because of what Jesus did.

I have not disputed that a person does have a real participation in the Baptismal process. That begins with the acknowledging of one's SINFUL State and the need for a right relationship with the GOD-HEAD, Then the Confession, Repentance in submission to GOD'S Will and baptism. It all begins with the recognizing/ FAITH in Jesus Christ upon the Cross as payment for one's Sin-Debt.

 

[Shiranui117]

Sorry for not responding sooner, but the first week back on campus after March break is kinda hectic.

Shiranui, here is that quote of yours concerning baptism and Jesus' Blood.

The only way that can happen is symbolically as was the "bulls and Goats" sacrificed and stated as "shadows" of Jesus Christ being the real image. Therefore, again--symbolically.--just as the meaning of "in like figure" and "like as".

How is that "the only way"? I'd like to hear your rationale on this. If baptism was merely done for show, then we wouldn't be washed with the blood of Jesus through it, now, would we?

And yes, I understand the doctrine of "trans-substantiation"---as applied to the bread and cup of "communion".(which is another topic---and false; Therefore, don't try to apply that doctrine of changing the "water of Baptism into the "real blood of Jesus".

You are severely misunderstanding my position, then.

I'm not saying that the baptismal waters turn into the blood of Christ.

I'm saying that baptism confers on us the grace of Jesus' death and resurrection, and it's in baptism that we are "washed in the blood of Christ."

It is the "real thing" that makes the "symbolic" of value---not the other way around.(vise-versa).

And if the symbol participates in what it represents, then it isn't merely "symbolic" in the civilian way we speak of it. Yes, it is a representation. But within it is also the reality of the thing represented.

GOD the Father's Grace was given for the Believing upon the Done Actions/ fulfilled missions of the SON not a substitute.(Remember Cain?)
"The devils, also, believe and tremble". (James 2:19)

We don't believe that anything does--or can--substitute the work of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ. We DO, however, that He and His Apostles gave us ways to tap into the grace of His saving works.

I have not disputed that a person does have a real participation in the Baptismal process. That begins with the acknowledging of one's SINFUL State and the need for a right relationship with the GOD-HEAD, Then the Confession, Repentance in submission to GOD'S Will and baptism. It all begins with the recognizing/ FAITH in Jesus Christ upon the Cross as payment for one's Sin-Debt.

But before that, God calls us. After God's calling comes all the stuff you described. Then comes the washing away of sins in baptism, thanks to the work done by Christ.

 

[Shiranui117]

e.r.m., All who didn't get aboard the ARK ---drowned/died/didn't live because of the "waters". Yes, one is baptized in "water", but the "like figure" was all who will be "saved out of this world" will be those who are "in Christ Jesus".(as in the Ark)
1Pet.1:18-25 declares that one is only "Redeemed" by the Blood of Jesus Christ. Peter doesn't contradict himself in the next two chapters, but you have misinterpreted the message of Peter. The Scriptures continue to be TRUE/RIGHT.

Yes, this is correct. Baptism does not compete with the blood of Christ, nor do we say that baptism saves us instead of Jesus' stripes. As an aqueduct conveys water from a reservoir to a city, bathhouse or what have you, so baptism conveys grace from Jesus' life, death and Resurrection to the newly-baptized. Baptism is a medium of grace and salvation, not its source.

 

[e.r.m.]

e.r.m., All who didn't get aboard the ARK ---drowned/died/didn't live because of the "waters". Yes, one is baptized in "water", but the "like figure" was all who will be "saved out of this world" will be those who are "in Christ Jesus".(as in the Ark)
1Pet.1:18-25 declares that one is only "Redeemed" by the Blood of Jesus Christ. Peter doesn't contradict himself in the next two chapters, but you have misinterpreted the message of Peter. The Scriptures continue to be TRUE/RIGHT.

Sorry for the delay.
I can agree with people today being saved out of the world.

Where in 1 Peter 1:18-25 does it declare "only"?
I don't see the word 'only'.
1 Peter 1:18-25 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, [19] but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. [20] He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. [21] Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. [22] Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. [23] For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. [24] For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, [25] but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.

You have also fallen into a common inconsistency that belief only advocates fall into.
When you say only by the blood of Christ, you knock out belief as a requirement of salvation.
The blood of Christ was God/Jesus's part,
baptism in 1 Peter 3:21 is man's part.
Belief and repentance are also required, but they are covered in other verses.

 

[e.r.m.]

Yes, this is correct. Baptism does not compete with the blood of Christ, nor do we say that baptism saves us instead of Jesus' stripes. As an aqueduct conveys water from a reservoir to a city, bathhouse or what have you, so baptism conveys grace from Jesus' life, death and Resurrection to the newly-baptized. Baptism is a medium of grace and salvation, not its source.

Well described.

 

[Shiranui117]

Well described.

I find it funny that it took me dozens of pages to finally find a succinct method of explaining it well enough

 

[e.r.m.]

I find it funny that it took me dozens of pages to finally find a succinct method of explaining it well enough

It takes practice. I've found it worthwhile to defer back what the scriptures say explicity and what the scriptures don't say explicitly.

 

[sincerly]

Sorry for not responding sooner, but the first week back on campus after March break is kinda hectic.

Agreed, being away for awhile can be hectic.(That would be your Easter Break--right?)

Originally Posted by Shiranui117
Yes, we obtain remission of sins through the blood of Jesus. What I've been trying to tell you ever since I came into this topic is that baptism is the means by which we are washed with the blood of Jesus.

The only way that can happen is symbolically as was the "bulls and Goats" sacrificed and stated as "shadows" of Jesus Christ being the real image. Therefore, again--symbolically.--just as the meaning of "in like figure" and "like as"

.

How is that "the only way"? I'd like to hear your rationale on this. If baptism was merely done for show, then we wouldn't be washed with the blood of Jesus through it, now, would we?

Hi Shiranui, "the washing in the blood of Jesus....through it" IS A SYMBOLIC WASHING. It was Jesus who was "foreordained before the foundation of the world" and "by whose Blood" all the "redeemed" are to be saved and that "in belief in that death ,burial and resurrection".(1Pet.1:18-21)

You are severely misunderstanding my position, then.

I'm not saying that the baptismal waters turn into the blood of Christ.

I'm saying that baptism confers on us the grace of Jesus' death and resurrection, and it's in baptism that we are "washed in the blood of Christ."

And if the symbol participates in what it represents, then it isn't merely "symbolic" in the civilian way we speak of it. Yes, it is a representation. But within it is also the reality of the thing represented.

Shiranui, talk about "double-talk". Isn't that the same philosophical language the serpent used on EVE? The thing "within it is the thing represented" and that is Christ Jesus---Symbolically represented((And that was Christ upon the cross as our Redeemer.).
Those at Pentecost were shown the Redeemer of mankind---they recognized the fact and in "Believing that fact" were asked to "repent and be baptized". Peter in (1 3:21) was showing that it was "BY THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST" THAT SALVATION IS ACCOMPLISHED.
That is the message of 1Cor. 15:12-22.

We don't believe that anything does--or can--substitute the work of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ. We DO, however, that He and His Apostles gave us ways to tap into the grace of His saving works.

And those ways are all symbolic/Representative.

But before that, God calls us. After God's calling comes all the stuff you described. Then comes the washing away of sins in baptism, thanks to the work done by Christ.

Shiranui, 2Peter3:9 declares the "call" is to the entire world's population from Adam to the last person to be born before Christ comes again. GOD is "long-suffering not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
The "Remission of sins" is certainly done by what Jesus Christ has DONE upon the Cross. HE gave HIS Life that the Confessing, repenting person would have eternal life--provided by HIM.
One's Baptism is "Symbolic" of that act of HIS---the Cross, the tomb, and the resurrection... to arise in newness of life.

The aqueduct is still a symbolic means of expressing the same thoughts which the writers of the Scriptures has given. A Symbol can not be more than that which it represents. Just as the blood of goats and bulls could not continue to replace JESUS in those sacrifices AFTER HE CAME AND SACRIFICED/GAVE HIMSELF UPON THE CROSS.

 

[sincerly]

Yes, this is correct. Baptism does not compete with the blood of Christ, nor do we say that baptism saves us instead of Jesus' stripes. As an aqueduct conveys water from a reservoir to a city, bathhouse or what have you, so baptism conveys grace from Jesus' life, death and Resurrection to the newly-baptized. Baptism is a medium of grace and salvation, not its source.

Hi Shiranui, ??? The penalty for SIN is death----NOT "stripes". Yes, Jesus was beaten and received many "stripes", but it was HIS DEATH UPON the CROSS by which Redemption was purchased.
Eph. 2:1-(4-10)-22, tells a different FACT, (The symbolism of baptism isn't even a suggestion), "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Vs.13, "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

That was in reference to "US"----Both Jews and Gentiles (The Jews rejected the Messiah--- the Gentiles have an opportunity to share in "salvation is of the Jews".

 

[Shiranui117]

Agreed, being away for awhile can be hectic.(That would be your Easter Break--right?)

No, sadly; we don't have even Good Friday or Bright Monday off for Easter. Easter weekend is just a normal weekend, as far as the university calendar is concerned. I was quite shocked and disappointed, personally. :/

Hi Shiranui, "the washing in the blood of Jesus....through it" IS A SYMBOLIC WASHING.

You have yet to show that it is MERELY representative and does nothing else.

It was Jesus who was "foreordained before the foundation of the world" and "by whose Blood" all the "redeemed" are to be saved and that "in belief in that death ,burial and resurrection".(1Pet.1:18-21)

Yes, that's been well-established and agreed upon for basically the entire thread.

Shiranui, talk about "double-talk". Isn't that the same philosophical language the serpent used on EVE?

No, not at all. The serpent didn't use any philosophical language with Eve. There's absolutely no parallel between what I said and what the serpent said.

The thing "within it is the thing represented" and that is Christ Jesus---Symbolically represented((And that was Christ upon the cross as our Redeemer.).

It's not mere symbolism.

Those at Pentecost were shown the Redeemer of mankind---they recognized the fact and in "Believing that fact" were asked to "repent and be baptized". Peter in (1 3:21) was showing that it was "BY THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST" THAT SALVATION IS ACCOMPLISHED.
That is the message of 1Cor. 15:12-22.

Shiranui, 2Peter3:9 declares the "call" is to the entire world's population from Adam to the last person to be born before Christ comes again. GOD is "long-suffering not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
The "Remission of sins" is certainly done by what Jesus Christ has DONE upon the Cross. HE gave HIS Life that the Confessing, repenting person would have eternal life--provided by HIM.

Thanks for reiterating what we've already agreed upon.

And those ways are all symbolic/Representative.

One's Baptism is "Symbolic" of that act of HIS---the Cross, the tomb, and the resurrection... to arise in newness of life.

You have yet to show that they are MERELY "symbols" in the pedestrian sense. They are symbols, yes, but the purpose of the Sacraments goes further.
Just to give me a better idea about how far apart we actually are, I'm going to see how much of the following you agree with:

In the Christian Church the practice of baptism takes on a new and particular significance. It no longer remains merely a sign of moral change and spiritual rebirth. It becomes very specifically the act of a person’s death and resurrection in and with Jesus. Christian baptism is man’s participation in the event of Easter. It is a “new birth by water and the Holy Spirit” into the Kingdom of God (Jn 3:5).
Baptism in the Church begins with the rejection of Satan and the acceptance of Christ. Before being baptized, a person—or his sponsors or godparents for him—officially proclaims the symbol of Christian faith, the Creed. Because the godparent speaks on behalf of the child, sponsors his entrance into the Church and “receives” the child out of the baptismal waters into the Church and cares for his spiritual life, the godparent himself must be a member of the Church.
After the proclamation of faith, the baptismal water is prayed over and blessed as the sign of the goodness of God’s creation. The person to be baptized is also prayed over and blessed with sanctified oil as the sign that his creation by God is holy and good. And then, after the solemn proclamation of “Alleluia” (God be praised), the person is immersed three times in the water in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Through the act of immersion, the baptized person dies to this world and is born again in the resurrection of Christ into eternal life. He is clothed with the “garments of salvation” symbolized by the white baptismal robe which is the “new humanity” of Jesus himself who is the new and heavenly Adam (See Jn 3, Rom 5, 1 Cor 15). Thus, the words of the Apostle Paul are chanted as the newly-baptized is led in procession around the baptismal font three times as the symbol of his procession to the Kingdom of God and his entrance into eternal life: “For as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Alleluia” (Gal 3:27). Source


The holy mysteries or sacraments in the [] Church are vessels of the mystical participation in divine grace of mankind. In a general sense, the [] Church considers everything which is in and of the Church as sacramental or mystical.
The sacraments, like the Church, are both visible and invisible. In every sacrament there is a combination of an outward visible sign with an inward spiritual grace. . .they are called mysteries because what we believe is not the same as what we see; instead, we see one thing and believe another.
The sacraments are personal — they are the means whereby God’s grace is appropriated to each individual Christian. Holy Mysteries - OrthodoxWiki
​

The aqueduct is still a symbolic means of expressing the same thoughts which the writers of the Scriptures has given. A Symbol can not be more than that which it represents.

I don't think I quite understand what you're getting at here.

Just as the blood of goats and bulls could not continue to replace JESUS in those sacrifices AFTER HE CAME AND SACRIFICED/GAVE HIMSELF UPON THE CROSS.

Again, for the hundredth time, baptism does not replace Jesus.

Hi Shiranui, ??? The penalty for SIN is death----NOT "stripes". Yes, Jesus was beaten and received many "stripes", but it was HIS DEATH UPON the CROSS by which Redemption was purchased.

1 Peter 2
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us,[f] leaving us[g] an example, that you should follow His steps: 22 “Who committed no sin,
Nor was deceit found in His mouth”; [h]

23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

Now that that little side note has been dealt out...

Eph. 2:1-(4-10)-22, tells a different FACT, (The symbolism of baptism isn't even a suggestion), "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Vs.13, "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

That was in reference to "US"----Both Jews and Gentiles (The Jews rejected the Messiah--- the Gentiles have an opportunity to share in "salvation is of the Jews".

I don't see how this contradicts anything I've said. If anything, it supports what I've said. We die and rise with Christ in baptism.

 

[sincerly]

You have yet to show that it is MERELY representative and does nothing else.

Hi Shiranui, )From your 3-14-13 post----""And if the symbol participates in what it represents, then it isn't merely "symbolic" in the civilian way we speak of it. Yes, it is a representation. But within it is also the reality of the thing represented."

The Blood of those sacrificed "bulls and goats" were "shadows"/symbolic of the Death/sacrifice Jesus Christ(The correct "image" which casted the "shadows") made upon the Cross for the Atonement needed in order to secure/restore a right relationship of mankind to the Father. That was before the fact of Jesus dying upon the Cross.
Now after that occurrence/event on the Cross that which took place during that "Passover festival" approx. 2000years ago. is symbolically/represented in showing one's acceptance of that "sacrifice" for propitiation of sins in the act of baptism. (Death, burial, and resurrection).
Jesus Christ died once---the reality---for all the sins ever committed or will be committed prior to HIS Return.
Jesus is not literally being crucified at the time of one's baptism. Baptism is a symbolic event of one's entering into that death and Resurrection by joining with GOD as HIM being one's GOD.

It's not mere symbolism.

You have yet to show that they are MERELY "symbols" in the pedestrian sense. They are symbols, yes, but the purpose of the Sacraments goes further.
Just to give me a better idea about how far apart we actually are, I'm going to see how much of the following you agree with:

Shiranui, I read your source.
"Baptism

The practice of baptism as a religious symbol did not begin with Jesus."
Even the Church recognizes baptism as a symbol. Now notice the first line you quoted.

In the Christian Church the practice of baptism takes on a new and particular significance. It no longer remains merely a sign of moral change and spiritual rebirth. It becomes very specifically the act of a person’s death and resurrection in and with Jesus. Christian baptism is man’s participation in the event of Easter. It is a “new birth by water and the Holy Spirit” into the Kingdom of God (Jn 3:5).

John, the baptist, preached the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand and the baptism of repentance.
Jesus came preaching and seeking the lost and the restoration of all things. In baptism Jesus gave the symbolic understanding of a new birth obtained by the BELIEF IN HIS DEATH BURIAL AND RESURRECTION.
Previously, the remission of sins was obtained by confession of sins and presenting a sacrifice before the priest---then with a knife slitting the throat of the "sacrifice" and the priest taking the blood to present before the LORD GOD.
ALL of which was symbolic of Jesus, "the Lamb which taketh away the sins of the world"(John 1:29, 36)/ "The Lamb which was slain before the foundation of the world".(Rev.13:8)
Shiranui, your source is the body which made the "sacraments" and gave them meanings as contrived by men. The """"takes on a new and particular significance. It no longer remains merely a sign of moral change and spiritual rebirth.""""
As stated previously, baptism has taken on the same "Sacrament status" which the Jews did with the "Bronze serpent"--and it had to be ground into dust.
Doesn't the scriptures teach that there will be a teaching of false doctrines? 2Tim.4:3-4, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. AS are seen in Matt.15:9 and Mark 7:7??
The principle of that bronze serpent was true, but there was a corrupting of the principle/symbol.
"Creed?" See above.

The aqueduct is still a symbolic means of expressing the same thoughts which the writers of the Scriptures has given. A Symbol can not be more than that which it represents.

Quote=me quoting you in my answer]The thing "within it is the thing represented" and that is Christ Jesus---Symbolically represented((And that was Christ upon the cross as our Redeemer.).[/quote]

I don't think I quite understand what you're getting at here.

Read it again.

Again, for the hundredth time, baptism does not replace Jesus.

And for the hundredth time, agreed, baptism is symbolic of Christ's Death, burial, and Resurrection just as Rom .6:1-6 expresses.

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Shiranui, ??? The penalty for SIN is death----NOT "stripes". Yes, Jesus was beaten and received many "stripes", but it was HIS DEATH UPON the CROSS by which Redemption was purchased.

1 Peter 2
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us,[f] leaving us[g] an example, that you should follow His steps: 22 “Who committed no sin,
Nor was deceit found in His mouth”; [h]23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

Now that that little side note has been dealt out...

Not quite,Peter was quoting from Isaiah53 and the "stripes"= "chabbuwwah" was marks/bruises/discoloration of the skin.
Those sins which Jesus bore in HIS body was canceled by HIS death(for the remission of sins) upon the cross, NOT the "stripes". Did you notice the ) or(_) before that last phrase?
Yes, GOD does chastise all HE loves who are being disobedient. and those who understand and repent are "healed".

I don't see how this contradicts anything I've said. If anything, it supports what I've said. We die and rise with Christ in baptism.

Symbolically.

 

[e.r.m.]

Sincerly,
Why didn't the apostles incessantly point out symbolically, like you do?
Why weren't they as thorough as you apparently are in reminding people "it's symbolic"?

 

[sincerly]

Sincerly,
Why didn't the apostles incessantly point out symbolically, like you do?
Why weren't they as thorough as you apparently are in reminding people "it's symbolic"?

They were in using language which expressed the messages which our English was translated from ,also, expressing the symbolics---- "in like figure"; "like as"; "have been planted together", etc.

 

[e.r.m.]

They were in using language which expressed the messages which our English was translated from ,also, expressing the symbolics---- "in like figure"; "like as"; "have been planted together", etc.

This doesn't answer the question. Suspending for the moment that 1 Peter 3:21 makes clear that it is not baptism that symbolizes anything, the Apostles still didn't make reference to symbolism nearly as much as you do. Why didn't the Apostles refer to symbolism directly as often as you do?

 

[Shiranui117]

Hi Shiranui, )From your 3-14-13 post----""And if the symbol participates in what it represents, then it isn't merely "symbolic" in the civilian way we speak of it. Yes, it is a representation. But within it is also the reality of the thing represented."

The Blood of those sacrificed "bulls and goats" were "shadows"/symbolic of the Death/sacrifice Jesus Christ(The correct "image" which casted the "shadows") made upon the Cross for the Atonement needed in order to secure/restore a right relationship of mankind to the Father. That was before the fact of Jesus dying upon the Cross.

Now you're just cherrypicking. You're taking the parts that speak of symbolism from both my post and my source, and ignoring the statements that say that there is more to baptism. This conversation would progress further if you didn't pick and choose from my own words and from my own sources in order to support your argument, while ignoring things to the contrary without disproving them. I fear that we're either moving in circles or have reached an impasse.

Now after that occurrence/event on the Cross that which took place during that "Passover festival" approx. 2000years ago. is symbolically/represented in showing one's acceptance of that "sacrifice" for propitiation of sins in the act of baptism. (Death, burial, and resurrection).
Jesus Christ died once---the reality---for all the sins ever committed or will be committed prior to HIS Return.

Jesus is not literally being crucified at the time of one's baptism. Baptism is a symbolic event of one's entering into that death and Resurrection by joining with GOD as HIM being one's GOD.

No, we do not crucify Christ anew in our baptisms. But we are participating in His crucifixion that took place 2,000 years ago. Time is not linear to God; everything is the present to Him. "Eternity" really means "timelessness." Time is a construct of this universe.

Shiranui, I read your source.
"Baptism

The practice of baptism as a religious symbol did not begin with Jesus."
Even the Church recognizes baptism as a symbol. Now notice the first line you quoted.

You're ignoring the rest of the article.

John, the baptist, preached the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand and the baptism of repentance.
Jesus came preaching and seeking the lost and the restoration of all things. In baptism Jesus gave the symbolic understanding of a new birth obtained by the BELIEF IN HIS DEATH BURIAL AND RESURRECTION.
Previously, the remission of sins was obtained by confession of sins and presenting a sacrifice before the priest---then with a knife slitting the throat of the "sacrifice" and the priest taking the blood to present before the LORD GOD.
ALL of which was symbolic of Jesus, "the Lamb which taketh away the sins of the world"(John 1:29, 36)/ "The Lamb which was slain before the foundation of the world".(Rev.13:8)
Shiranui, your source is the body which made the "sacraments" and gave them meanings as contrived by men. The """"takes on a new and particular significance. It no longer remains merely a sign of moral change and spiritual rebirth.""""

If you reject the teachings of the Apostles, as well as the combined understanding coming from the lives, wisdom, experience, reflection, prayer and worship of all the members of Christ's Church over the past 2,000 years, that's your business. But I'll ask that you keep an open mind to the Church that Paul called the "pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15). After all, it's the very same Church that wrote, interpreted and compiled the Bible under the guidance of the Apostles and their personal, hand-selected, loyal disciples, and is the Church that Christ founded, and promised to preserve from every stain and blemish.

As stated previously, baptism has taken on the same "Sacrament status" which the Jews did with the "Bronze serpent"--and it had to be ground into dust.
Doesn't the scriptures teach that there will be a teaching of false doctrines? 2Tim.4:3-4, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. AS are seen in Matt.15:9 and Mark 7:7??
The principle of that bronze serpent was true, but there was a corrupting of the principle/symbol.
"Creed?" See above.

And what makes you sure that you know what these "false doctrines" are? What makes you think that your understanding of the Scriptures is correct? Keep in mind the exchange between the Apostle Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:

27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.” 30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.

We cannot understand or interpret the Scriptures properly on our own; we need the Church to help us understand them. The eunuch made no appeal to the Holy Spirit, nor did Philip tell the eunuch that he'd understand if he just read and prayed. He got up into the chariot with the eunuch, and laid down the faith personally to him.

Read it again.

Still no dice.

And for the hundredth time, agreed, baptism is symbolic of Christ's Death, burial, and Resurrection just as Rom .6:1-6 expresses.

Symbolically.

But it is ALSO more than mere symbolism. We've discussed this ad nauseum, and there's still no agreement between us. I'm beginning to question whether this exchange still has any benefit for either of us.

 

[Muffled]

So yeah, pretty much the same exact stuff. Good to see you again, Muffled.


Well, no, they didn't call it symbolic. Peter said that baptism was like the Israelites passing through the Red Sea, which itself points to the fact that baptism is the means by which we pass from slavery to sin and death (slavery to Egypt) and into life with Jesus (the Sinai Peninsula, and eventually, the Promised Land). And that comparison of baptism to the crossing of the Red Sea actually gives even more evidence to the fact that baptism has a salvific effect.

It is one means by which God saved the Israelites but not the only means. The means is not the Savior; God is. You wouldn't see a Jewish person trying to cross he res sea today to be saved because it is just a means not a method of salvation. so, if you wish to say that God can use baptism as a means of salvation I would agree but I don't believe a baptism without the saving grace of God does anything and that it is not a method of salvation. (Quite obviously I am not a methodist or traditionalist)

 

[Muffled]

Only Jesus saves through baptism, since baptism is actually from Jesus, not separate from Jesus. Paul never "called" it symbolic, for that he'd have to have used the word symbolic.

1 Corinthians 10:1-2 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; [2] and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

This is not baptism in Jesus's name as is commanded in Matthew 38:19 and Acts 2:38.
Baptism in Jesus's name is in physical water.

Jesus saved me in a rocking chair. The rocking chair was a means to my salvation but it did not save me, Jesus did. When I was baptised I was already saved for seven years.

That is similar to the argument that the word trinity is not inthe Bible. It doesn't have to be because the concept is there.

One has water and one does not so they are not alike physically so the physical is not what saves. People are saved by the grace of God through Islam (hearing and obeying God). The difference is that people can phyisically pass through the Red Sea and still revert back to idol worship, while those who pass through the water of Baptism have obeyed the physical requirement and yet have not received spiritually. That is why it is so important to teach people to expect to receive spiritually in baptism. The baptism does not evoke a spiritual experience but a belief that it will, can.