Accusations of Pedophilia and U.S. Law

[stvdv]

Do you believe no libel occurred here?

=
I think that the man on CNN did very stupid with his remark
I am glad Elon Musk replied in kind to teach him a lesson
And Elon has foresight I guess, no name + delete it
Justice served, karma is the proverbial *****
I am glad the judge saw through this
=

And if so, how come?

Or are you against libel laws in general?

I do think this Law takes things out of proportion sometimes
But it's good to remind humans to behave "as humans"

It's good to protect kids from cruelty on the net, and grown ups ... well they should behave as grown ups

 

[Revoltingest]

I was already familiar with the case.
It wasn't a crime for Musk to make the accusation.
But Musk was liable for damages IMO.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I was already familiar with the case.
It wasn't a crime for Musk to make the accusation.
But Musk was liable for damages IMO.

So baseless and potentially damaging accusations of pedophilia aren't a crime per U.S. law? What are defamation laws for, then?

 

[Revoltingest]

So baseless and potentially damaging accusations of pedophilia aren't a crime per U.S. law? What are defamation laws for, then?

They're about torts (civil suits).

 

[Debater Slayer]

They're about torts (civil suits).

Do you think Unsworth could have won a civil suit against Musk?

 

[Revoltingest]

Do you think Unsworth could have won a civil suit against Musk?

Yes.

 

[F1fan]

No one has brought up that republicans have been accusing democrats of being pedophiles for a few years now. There was the conspiracy theory about Clinton being involved in child trafficking and a guy taking that so seriously that he showed up at the pizza place where the pedo operation was supposed to be happening. Desantis' Don;t Say Gay bill has been defended by implying gays groom children.

Ron DeSantis press secretary compares "Don't Say Gay" critics to pedophiles

There have been a number of other suggestions by republicans that democrats are pedophiles

Why Republicans Are Smearing Everyone As Pedophiles Now

What is odd is that the only person in congress who has been accused of underage sex is Matt Gaetz, a Florida republican.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It was a stupid lawsuit that probably should have been thrown out by the judge.

That exactly. It's dumb celebrity/attention whore drama.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Perhaps those who dismiss Musk's remarks as to not being that serious (so as to constitute libel), they might ponder what the effects upon themselves would be if such an accusation was made against them. Given that mud often sticks and the context of such remarks - the place being Thailand, well known for underage prostitution and/or exploitation, and where foreigners might be suspected as to their motives for being in the country. Even though Unsworth was married to a Thai. So the accusation might have had a larger effect due to the place. Hardly the same as telling someone to shove it (whatever) up their ***.

 

[Revoltingest]

Perhaps those who dismiss Musk's remarks as to not being that serious (so as to constitute libel), they might ponder what the effects upon themselves would be if such an accusation was made against them. Given that mud often sticks and the context of such remarks - the place being Thailand, well known for underage prostitution, and where foreigners might be suspected as to their motives for being in the country. Even though Unsworth was married to a Thai. So the accusation might have had a larger effect due to the place. Hardly the same as telling someone to shove it (whatever) up their ***.

Aye, Musk should've paid him damages.
What a turd of a person Musk is.

 

[Debater Slayer]

That exactly. It's dumb celebrity/attention whore drama.

Do you think there's no merit whatsoever to the idea that someone could suffer damage to their reputation or social relationships due to a tweet containing such an accusation from a globally known public figure? Even if we say it was merely meant as an insult, then how do we explain Musk's doubling down on the accusation in an email to a reporter?

As I said earlier on in the thread, if U.S. law has no recourse for people who experience negative effects from defamatory claims, then it sounds like it needs some changes. I still hope that's not the case, though.

Edit: I added a couple of links in post #39 clarifying that Musk had hired a "private investigator" to dig up dirt on Unsworth, which seems to me to be clear evidence that Musk meant the claim seriously and wasn't merely insulting Unsworth.

 

[Revoltingest]

As I said earlier on in the thread, if U.S. law has no recourse for people who experience negative effects from defamatory claims, then it sounds like it needs some changes. I still hope that's not the case, though.

We must be cautious about granting government the
authority to make such speech illegal. There's great
potential for abuse, ie, a cure that's worse than the
problem.

 

[Debater Slayer]

We must be cautious about granting government the
authority to make such speech illegal. There's great
potential for abuse, ie, a cure that's worse than the
problem.

Most developed countries are doing okay, and the majority of them have laws against defamation that results in demonstrable harm to the defamed party.

If I lived in the U.S. and some influential public figure accused me of pedophilia and consequently got me fired from my job and/or socially shunned by people who barely even knew me (if at all), would they just get away with it?

 

[Revoltingest]

Most developed countries are doing okay, and the majority of them have laws against defamation that results in demonstrable harm to the defamed party.

We should consider more than just examples that turn
out well regarding speech regulation, eg, religious,
political, insults. There are many countries where it's
used to suppress legitimate speech, eg, China, Thailand,
Saudi Arabia.

We also prefer more liberty here than your end
of the world does. Different cultures, ya know.

If I lived in the U.S. and some influential public figure accused me of pedophilia and consequently got me fired from my job and/or socially shunned by people who barely even knew me (if at all), would they just get away with it?

There is remedy in civil court.

 

[Debater Slayer]

We should consider more than just examples that turn
out well. There are many countries where it's used to
suppress speech, eg, China, Thailand, Saudi Arabia.

We also prefer more liberty here than your end of
the world wants. Different cultures, ya know.

I suspect that most who suffer due to unfounded accusations wouldn't consider such a damaging action a liberty to be protected or encouraged.

Also, the U.S. is at odds with even the majority of other developed countries when it comes to its concept of "free speech." I've touched on this before in other threads. So it's less about my end of the world (with which I have many significant differences in perspective, especially on freedom) and more about one country's (the United States') laws.

There is remedy in civil court.

In which case I can only wonder why Unsworth's lawyers didn't recommend going that route.

 

[Revoltingest]

I suspect that most who suffer due to unfounded accusations wouldn't consider such a damaging action a liberty to be protected or encouraged.

But this must be balanced against the chilling effect
of government deciding who can say what & when.
Enforcement is agenda laden, & can be made a
political tool.

Also, the U.S. is at odds with even the majority of other developed countries when it comes to its concept of "free speech." I've touched on this before in other threads. So it's less about my end of the world (with which I have many significant differences in perspective, especially on freedom) and more about one country's (the United States') laws.

I prefer more freedom of speech than your typical middle
easterner, European, or Asian. Sure, it's messy & results
in some injustice. But you don't seem to pay attention to
the downside of speech regulation by law.

In which case I can only wonder why Unsworth's lawyers didn't recommend going that route.

Unsworth did sue Musk.
But he lost.

 

[Debater Slayer]

But this must be balanced against the chilling effect
of government deciding who can say what & when.
Enforcement is agenda laden, & can be made a
political tool.

It seems to me that multiple countries have found a reasonable middle ground. It isn't impossible to fairly settle cases involving conspicuous damage to someone's life as a result of defamation.

I prefer more freedom of speech than your typical middle
easterner, European, or Asian. Sure, it's messy & results
in some injustice. But you don't seem to pay attention to
the downside of speech regulation by law.

Actually, I have to pay attention to many things in my life down to my participation on RF precisely for that reason.

I'd rather not delve into this, though. The bottom line is that I don't think endeavoring to prevent or remedy blatant damage from false accusations necessarily has to result in another Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Unsworth did sue Musk.
But he lost.

You said earlier that you believed he could have won a civil suit against Musk. So this one wasn't? Or is it just extremely hard to win a defamation case even in civil court? I don't know enough about U.S. law when it comes to civil versus criminal cases.

 

[Revoltingest]

It seems to me that multiple countries have found a reasonable middle ground. It isn't impossible to fairly settle cases involving conspicuous damage to someone's life as a result of defamation.

You focus upon only the positive.
I'm concerned with balancing that against
the unintended deleterious consequences.

Actually, I have to pay attention to many things in my life down to my participation on RF precisely for that reason.

I'd rather not delve into this, though. The bottom line is that I don't think endeavoring to prevent or remedy blatant damage from false accusations necessarily has to result in another Iran or Saudi Arabia.

I never said that it "necessarily" has that result.
I don't see things as so strictly deterministic.
It's about risks.

You said earlier that you believed he could have won a civil suit against Musk. So this one wasn't? Or is it just extremely hard to win a defamation case even in civil court? I don't know enough about U.S. law when it comes to civil versus criminal cases.

Whether it's hard or easy to win such a civil
suit depends upon the individual case.

The basics....
Civil vs Criminal Law - Intuito Legal
Excerpted....
The two different bodies of law in the United States that try to hold people accountable for their wrongdoings are criminal or civil. Criminal law seeks to deter or punish serious wrongdoings while civil law focuses on compensating victims who have been wronged.

Civil and criminal law differ in regards to who initiates a case and how this is done, the kinds of punishment or penalties that may be imposed, what standards of proof must be met and the legal protections that are made available to a defendant.

Charges
Criminal and civil charges are separate from each other. The same crime can be prosecuted in a criminal trial, typically by a state or the federal government, as well as in a civil case brought about by individuals who were injured by the person’s crime. These injuries can be, but do not need to be physical injuries for a victim to make a claim against the perpetrator.

One example of a crime that can cause non-physical injuries, is intellectual property infringement. Typically, intellectual property offenses are treated as civil offenses unless state and/or federal laws are infringed upon. Depending on the circumstances, infringement of copyright, counterfeiting labels of copyrighted creations, theft of trade secrets and counterfeiting trademarks, may be subject to both criminal and civil charges. In a civil suit, the plaintiff (the victim of the crime) can try to recoup losses or seek compensation for ill-gotten gains. A criminal conviction can result in jail time, fines, and other punishments, as well as in some circumstances, punitive damages.

Civil Law

Civil law is the system of law that deals with private relations between members of a community rather than criminal, military or religious affairs. It deals with behavior that constitutes an injury to an individual or other private party. The injury can be physical, such as injuries that occur in a car accident or from medical malpractice and it can also deal with a non-physical injury. Examples of non-physical injuries include defamation, breach of contract, and infringement of copyright. Civil law also deals with property damage.

Civil cases are initiated by a private party that has suffered injury and who is referred to as, the plaintiff. Civil claims can be settled before they get to court but if they are not, they are decided by either a judge or a jury. Punishment in civil cases does not include criminal punishment such as imprisonment or having a professional license revoked. Typical awards in civil cases include money and returning property.

Criminal Law

Criminal cases can only be initiated by the federal or state government, where an agent of the government prosecutes the defendant on behalf of the government. Criminal cases are almost always decided by a jury. Punishments for criminal convictions often include jail/prison time and fines paid to the government. To get a defendant convicted in a criminal case, the prosecution needs to establish the guilt of the defendant beyond a reasonable doubt.

Criminal defendants are supposed to be protected from police and prosecutor conduct that violates their constitutional rights, including their Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable searches and seizures as well as the Fifth Amendment’s right against compelled self-incrimination.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You focus upon only the positive.
I'm concerned with balancing that against
the unintended deleterious consequences.

That doesn't accurately represent my position. I see risks too; I just don't think they entail throwing the baby out with the bathwater and scrapping defamation convictions altogether.

I never said that it "necessarily" has that result.
I don't see things as so strictly deterministic.
It's about risks.

See above.

Whether it's hard or easy to win such a civil
suit depends upon the individual case.

The basics....
Civil vs Criminal Law - Intuito Legal
Excerpted....
The two different bodies of law in the United States that try to hold people accountable for their wrongdoings are criminal or civil. Criminal law seeks to deter or punish serious wrongdoings while civil law focuses on compensating victims who have been wronged.

Civil and criminal law differ in regards to who initiates a case and how this is done, the kinds of punishment or penalties that may be imposed, what standards of proof must be met and the legal protections that are made available to a defendant.

Charges
Criminal and civil charges are separate from each other. The same crime can be prosecuted in a criminal trial, typically by a state or the federal government, as well as in a civil case brought about by individuals who were injured by the person’s crime. These injuries can be, but do not need to be physical injuries for a victim to make a claim against the perpetrator.

One example of a crime that can cause non-physical injuries, is intellectual property infringement. Typically, intellectual property offenses are treated as civil offenses unless state and/or federal laws are infringed upon. Depending on the circumstances, infringement of copyright, counterfeiting labels of copyrighted creations, theft of trade secrets and counterfeiting trademarks, may be subject to both criminal and civil charges. In a civil suit, the plaintiff (the victim of the crime) can try to recoup losses or seek compensation for ill-gotten gains. A criminal conviction can result in jail time, fines, and other punishments, as well as in some circumstances, punitive damages.

Civil Law

Civil law is the system of law that deals with private relations between members of a community rather than criminal, military or religious affairs. It deals with behavior that constitutes an injury to an individual or other private party. The injury can be physical, such as injuries that occur in a car accident or from medical malpractice and it can also deal with a non-physical injury. Examples of non-physical injuries include defamation, breach of contract, and infringement of copyright. Civil law also deals with property damage.

Civil cases are initiated by a private party that has suffered injury and who is referred to as, the plaintiff. Civil claims can be settled before they get to court but if they are not, they are decided by either a judge or a jury. Punishment in civil cases does not include criminal punishment such as imprisonment or having a professional license revoked. Typical awards in civil cases include money and returning property.

Criminal Law

Criminal cases can only be initiated by the federal or state government, where an agent of the government prosecutes the defendant on behalf of the government. Criminal cases are almost always decided by a jury. Punishments for criminal convictions often include jail/prison time and fines paid to the government. To get a defendant convicted in a criminal case, the prosecution needs to establish the guilt of the defendant beyond a reasonable doubt.

Criminal defendants are supposed to be protected from police and prosecutor conduct that violates their constitutional rights, including their Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable searches and seizures as well as the Fifth Amendment’s right against compelled self-incrimination.

Thanks. That helps.

However, it seems excessively hard to win a defamation case considering that Musk publicly made the initial accusation (which he claimed was just an "insult"), doubled down on it by calling the diver a "child rapist" in an email, and also hired a "private investigator" (reportedly a convicted felon) to try to find anything against the diver:

Elon Musk reportedly hired a convicted felon with a shady past to investigate the British diver he once called a 'pedo'

An aide to Elon Musk hired a private investigator to look into the diver Musk called a 'pedo guy'

If such a case wasn't ruled in favor of the plaintiff, which case could be? What more evidence would be needed than the above?

 

[pearl]

I hope this is not the case with U.S. laws regarding defamation.

It has to be proven, if the accusation is true there is no defamation.