Absolute Truth VS Opinion

[doppelganger]

Tell me how it's possibly that the only way to heaven is belief in Jesus *and* the only way to heaven is death in battle despite the fact that there is no heaven.

Perhaps because the signs have become the things signified?

 

[Sunstone]

Your Christian, you should be familiar with the famous expression which originated from your messiah "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
So how does one "know" the truth?

There are at least two ways of interpreting what is meant by "Truth" in that passage, Genna.

First, it is said by some folks the Truth here spoken of refers to the "message of salvation" brought by Jesus Christ. That is, that through belief in Him you can obtain forgiveness for your sins and everlasting life. In that sense, the Truth sets you free from sin and the consequences of sin.

Second, it is said by a few folks that the Truth spoken of refers to a direct, immediate, transcendental experience. That is, a mystical experience. In that sense, Truth is called "Truth" because the experience itself includes an overwhelming sense or feeling that it is more real, more primal, more true, than our normal everyday experience of life.

The first sense of the word truth does not require a radical change in consciousness. The second sense of the word truth, on the other hand, presupposes a radical change in consciousness. Indeed, perhaps a change in consciousness so profound that the term "consciousness" should no longer be used to describe the kind of awareness involved.

So, to answer you question about how one knows the Truth. If you interpret that passage as most people do, then you must take it on faith that you know the Truth when you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, thus releasing you from the binds of sin.

But if you interpret that passage in the second way, as referring to a mystical experience, then the only way you can know the Truth is to have some such mystical experience.

I hope this helps.

 

[cardero]

" Is there any way to determine what is the absolute truth?

Yes, simply ask GOD what religion he belongs to, if He responds that it is the same as yours, you are probably swimming in the realm of opinion.

 

[sojourner]

Christianity: The only way to heaven is through belief in Jesus.
Old Norse: The only way to heaven is death in battle.
Buddaism: There is no heaven, the way to nirvana is enlightenment

Tell me how it's possibly that the only way to heaven is belief in Jesus *and* the only way to heaven is death in battle despite the fact that there is no heaven.

Maybe those statements are dealing with different archetypes of one truth, and not the objects of different truths.

 

[JerryL]

Maybe those statements are dealing with different archetypes of one truth, and not the objects of different truths.

Aches of rhetoric. Tell me how there can be a heaven and not be a heaven simultaniously.

Tell me how the only way into heaven is to believe in Jesus, but non-believers who die in battle get into heaven simultaniously.

 

[doppelganger]

Aches of rhetoric. Tell me how there can be a heaven and not be a heaven simultaniously.

Tell me how the only way into heaven is to believe in Jesus, but non-believers who die in battle get into heaven simultaniously.

What is "a heaven," objectively speaking?

 

[Sunstone]

Tell me how there can be a heaven and not be a heaven simultaniously.

How can a metaphor both exist and not exist at the same time? How is a poem both true and false at once?

Or, if you want to speculate about metaphysics, then how do you know that you can make the same assumptions about heaven as you make about the existence or non existence of material things (i.e. that heaven can either be said to exist or not exist)? In what sense, if any, would a concept like "existence" apply to a metaphysical thing?

Tell me how the only way into heaven is to believe in Jesus, but non-believers who die in battle get into heaven simultaniously.

Tell me why you want to interpret poetry literally?

 

[sojourner]

Aches of rhetoric. Tell me how there can be a heaven and not be a heaven simultaniously.

Tell me how the only way into heaven is to believe in Jesus, but non-believers who die in battle get into heaven simultaniously.

Our perception of truth does not affect truth. Christians and Buddhists both conceptualize the disposition of the human spirit -- just in different ways. Christians and heathens conceptualize a path to divinity -- just in different ways. What's so difficult about that?

 

[Æsahættr]

Or, if you want to speculate about metaphysics, then how do you know that you can make the same assumptions about heaven as you make about the existence or non existence of material things (i.e. that heaven can either be said to exist or not exist)? In what sense, if any, would a concept like "existence" apply to a metaphysical thing?

Well our consciousness obviously exists at present. If consciousness is metaphysical then metaphysical things can have existance. If consciousness is not metaphysical, then it has to either exist or not exist, and therefore after death it either continues to exist, or it does not. If our consciousness exists after death then we can chose to call the place where it exists Heaven. If our consciousness does not exist after death then the concept of Heaven seems pointless. So the existance of Heaven is tied up to something which must either exist or not exist.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Is there any way to determine what is the absolute truth?

From the Baha'i scriptures:

"Such an existence is a contingent and not an absolute existence, inasmuch as the former is preceded by a cause, whilst the latter is independent thereof.
"Absolute existence is strictly confined to God, exalted be His glory. Well is it with them that apprehend this truth."
(Gleanings, page 157)

Best,

Bruce

 

[michel]

OK, I have heard people say many times on this board in regards to their faith/religion that it is their belief, or according to "their opinion" its the truth. How or if possible does one determine whether what is absolute truth as to personal opinion. E.G., "well you have your belief and I have mines," well I personally believe that Christianity is the truth, and I personally believe that Islam is the truth." Is there any way to determine what is the absolute truth? I mean all religions have differing opinions and beliefs, so which one is true? they can't all be if they differ! And is there a way to determine which one is the absolute truth or is the only way we are going to find out is when we die?

or is the only way we are going to find out is when we die?

Of course, you have said it; the only time we will know is when we die. You couldn't even prove to me that you aren't a figment of my imagination..............I don't believe that there is "true proof" of anything.

 

[PetShopBoy88]

Of course, you have said it; the only time we will know is when we die. You couldn't even prove to me that you aren't a figment of my imagination..............I don't believe that there is "true proof" of anything.

Didn't you say in a different thread that you know God is love? How do you reconcile those two statements? The statment that you know with the statement that one can never "know" until death?

 

[JerryL]

What is "a heaven," objectively speaking?

The place where the God(s) reside and the souls of the dead who believe in Jesus / die in battle go.

BTW, Was the world created by a god who seperated the waters above fromthe waters below (Judaism), Warmed from the eternal ice (Norse) or dreamed into existance by a shark (Australian Aboriginal beliefs)?

How can a metaphor both exist and not exist at the same time?

It can't. Metaphores have no object existance.

How is a poem both true and false at once?

A poem is not a statement of fact, it cannot therefore be true or false.

Or, if you want to speculate about metaphysics, then how do you know that you can make the same assumptions about heaven as you make about the existence or non existence of material things (i.e. that heaven can either be said to exist or not exist)? In what sense, if any, would a concept like "existence" apply to a metaphysical thing?

Ahh yes, the "illogical is true" towel get's thrown in. That's brickabrack the langiere. Raining on the furniture!

Tell me why you want to interpret poetry literally?

It's not believed to be poetic by many fundamenatlist Christians. Is their religion wrong? If so, my point is made.

Our perception of truth does not affect truth. Christians and Buddhists both conceptualize the disposition of the human spirit -- just in different ways. Christians and heathens conceptualize a path to divinity -- just in different ways. What's so difficult about that?

The question is whether they are right. The cannot both be right as they are mutaully exclusive.

I may conceptulaize a basket with 5 apples in it anyway I like. but if I think there are 6 apples in the basket, I'm wrong.

 

[doppelganger]

The place where the God(s) reside and the souls of the dead who believe in Jesus / die in battle go.

Is that an objective meaning or are you repeating things someone else says is the meaning they attribute to "a heaven"? What did you mean when you used the phrase "a heaven"?

BTW, Was the world created by a god who seperated the waters above fromthe waters below (Judaism), Warmed from the eternal ice (Norse) or dreamed into existance by a shark (Australian Aboriginal beliefs)?

Depends on whom you ask.

It can't. Metaphores have no object existance.

Bingo!

 

[Super Universe]

OK, I have heard people say many times on this board in regards to their faith/religion that it is their belief, or according to "their opinion" its the truth. How or if possible does one determine whether what is absolute truth as to personal opinion. E.G., "well you have your belief and I have mines," well I personally believe that Christianity is the truth, and I personally believe that Islam is the truth." Is there any way to determine what is the absolute truth? I mean all religions have differing opinions and beliefs, so which one is true? they can't all be if they differ! And is there a way to determine which one is the absolute truth or is the only way we are going to find out is when we die?

I know that God exists and that He created the universe. I know this absolutely, without a doubt. I would expect gravity to fail before I would expect it not to be so.

Everything else is a mystery, a work in progress, and subject to change.

Is there a way to determine absolute truth. Yes but revelation is specific, it is designed for you. What is a life changing event to you is nothing more than a strange dream to another.

Most world religions are the truth. Where they conflict is an obvious sign of a difference in human interpretation and or human changing of the real revelation.

How do you know the difference? What is truth and what is not? Trust yourself. Trust your conscience. Use it, activate it, and let it guide you.

 

[sojourner]

It's not believed to be poetic by many fundamenatlist Christians. Is their religion wrong? If so, my point is made.

It's not about right or wrong. It's about perspective. My perspective isn't the same as their perspective. We are not at a point where we can see truth at a glance.

 

[sojourner]

Our perception of truth does not affect truth. Christians and Buddhists both conceptualize the disposition of the human spirit -- just in different ways. Christians and heathens conceptualize a path to divinity -- just in different ways. What's so difficult about that?

The question is whether they are right. The cannot both be right as they are mutaully exclusive.

That's not the question. The question is, "What is the truth that both viewpoints reveal?" Certainly, if both are absolutes, then they are mutually exclusive. But if both are not absolutes, but concepts of an absolute, your point is moot.

I may conceptulaize a basket with 5 apples in it anyway I like. but if I think there are 6 apples in the basket, I'm wrong.

Only in base 10 mathematics.

 

[Super Universe]

I'm just trying to turn my life around which is why I am so inquisitive. This board has opened my eyes to a certain degree. I appreciate your responding. I'll try prayer, but not sure who am I suppose to pray to, does God have a name? People tell me to pray to alah, Jesus, God, Buddha, Krishna,.. who do I pray to? how do I go to heaven?

With this one admission I know that you will be just fine. You are suddenly in a hurry.

You want the truth now so you can be sure that you are on the right path but it is not possible for you to waver from it. God does not accept the failure of His children. He sent His Son to assist in our guidance. Angels watch over you. Believe me, your success is guaranteed.

You don't know who to pray to? Any name you choose is fine. I keep it simple and always say the Lords Prayer. Most of the day I am talking to Him anyway, pointing out things that I find interesting. I love to people watch. Anyway...

How do you go to heaven? The earth is first grade. After death we will either go to second grade, skip ahead to third, or maybe even go to the fourth grade. You do not want to go to the second grade. There you will compete with others who have lived a selfish life. You will not be treated kindly. You are a tool to them, with no rights.

Third grade has many gardens and fruit trees if you still feel the need to eat, and there are universal instructors who will teach you a universal language (not love, a real language), begin your training as a universal being and provide you with an advanced theory of God. From there, it only gets better and better.

 

[d.]

I may conceptulaize a basket with 5 apples in it anyway I like. but if I think there are 6 apples in the basket, I'm wrong.

well, that would depend on how you define 'an apple'.

 

[Moses the God Archetype*]

OK, I have heard people say many times on this board in regards to their faith/religion that it is their belief, or according to "their opinion" its the truth. How or if possible does one determine whether what is absolute truth as to personal opinion. E.G., "well you have your belief and I have mines," well I personally believe that Christianity is the truth, and I personally believe that Islam is the truth." Is there any way to determine what is the absolute truth? I mean all religions have differing opinions and beliefs, so which one is true? they can't all be if they differ! And is there a way to determine which one is the absolute truth or is the only way we are going to find out is when we die?

m: Oh beloved how you find truth is to go within yourself, within you exist truth......but are you ready to recive is the question, my beliefs are based around bhakti-yoga or hinduism a label i do not like to use.....krishna is my lord and God there can be no other I FOUND THAT TO BE TRUE BY MEDITATION, hence going inward, it is up to you YOU WILL NOT AND I REPEAT WILL NOT find God by external means, it is only support you understand, beloved if you have any questions regarding what i said feel free to ask.:flower2: