Abraham Lincoln was a Democratic socialist

[Guitar's Cry]

Even if so, Oligarchs can't remain oligarchs if the world goes up in flames.

The whole narrative is self defeating.

They're ready for the world going up in flames. Keep in mind that the negative effects of climate change are more likely to effect those in poverty.

This 15-story underground doomsday shelter for the 1% has luxury homes, guns, and armored trucks

 

[Twilight Hue]

Would you consider the first Democratic President (Andrew Jackson) a liberal? Would you consider the current presidential candidates of the Democratic party conservative?

This is the problem with identifying political parties with each other through time. Different issues, different people. By supporting modern British Tories, does this mean Trump would have then supported the American Tories (the Loyalists) during the Revolution?

That's a good part of the problem today. I tend to look at the published party Charter respectively and see if it's being followed or not by those who said to represent the party.

Unfortunately when so many in a particular party do not follow the charter, it does gets hard to tell what's what, other than thinking it's being infiltrated and internally changed with its values and ethics being relegated only to paper.

It's a good post. Something worth thinking about.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

That's a good part of the problem today. I tend to look at the published party Charter respectively and see if it's being followed or not by those who said to represent the party.

Unfortunately when so many in a particular party do not follow the charter, it does gets hard to tell what's what, other than thinking it's being infiltrated and internally changed with its values and ethics being relegated only to paper.

It's a good post. Something worth thinking about.

Well said!

 

[Revoltingest]

Way to project what I did not say. But under non-limited capitalism? Yeah-- in some ways, it's worse: At least a slave was fed from time to time... usually.

You said....
"But that's actually worse, in some ways, to slavery: Paying a wage slave near-zero money, but not having any responsibility for housing and food? The Wet Dream of the GOP's real power: the top 1%"
I was accurate

 

[Polymath257]

See post #41 for context.

Clearly you are wrong.

Fair enough. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Enoch07]

They're ready for the world going up in flames. Keep in mind that the negative effects of climate change are more likely to effect those in poverty.

This 15-story underground doomsday shelter for the 1% has luxury homes, guns, and armored trucks

That's fear mongering BS. Those underground doomsday bunkers are not sustainable, at least not for long enough for the environment to balance itself. Your talking about living underground for thousand of years, multiple generations. It makes no sense if you just educate yourself on the facts.

It's a cash grab stirred up by people promoting climate change.

The irony is thick.

Create a "problem" solve that "problem" laugh all the way to the bank.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

That's fear mongering BS. Those underground doomsday bunkers are not sustainable, at least not for long enough for the environment to balance itself. Your talking about living underground for thousand of years, multiple generations. It makes no sense if you just educate yourself on the facts.

How do you know it will take thousands of years, multiple generations if the government knows more than we do?

What we know, through our normal everyday scientists is that the effects of climate change are likely going to impact food and water, air quality, and make for some nasty weather. Infrastructure and health will be effected (and likely already has).

All those things impact those with less resources more.

It's a cash grab stirred up by people promoting climate change.

The irony is thick.

Create a "problem" solve that "problem" laugh all the way to the bank.

Phew! I was just about to purchase one...

Bet they'd be handy in a war, though. (Conflict also being a possible effect of climate change.)

 

[Enoch07]

How do you know it will take thousands of years, multiple generations if the government knows more than we do?

Because we are overdue for an ice age. More than likely an ice age is what will reset the planet, the through slow re-warming balance will be achieved. Like the cycle that has been repeated for billions of years many, many, many times.

An ice age will be an extinction level event for many species on the planet, but it life will persist. Undoubtedly it would be the extinction of the human race imo. Considering how dependent we are on our technology, few if any humans will be able to survive the new conditons.

An ice age will last for thousand of years. You can't store enough food in an underground bunker for that.

What we know, through our normal everyday scientists is that the effects of climate change are likely going to impact food and water, air quality, and make for some nasty weather. Infrastructure and health will be effected (and likely already has).

This will effect everyone. Being rich won't provide immunity. Of course this will be the time when folks will want to flee to a colony on Mars or who knows depending on the technological level when the day comes.

All those things impact those with less resources more.

Like I said we are overdue for an ice age already anyways, more than likely due to human induced climate change. Its possible we extended the life of humanity by delaying it. Nothing last forever. I think humanity has proven it is a failure. Perhaps it's better if we did go extinct.

Bet they'd be handy in a war, though.

Maybe, I dunno. Living in a tight cramped bunker for an indeterminate amount of time sounds like hell to me. I'd much rather be dead.

 

[icehorse]

Even if so, Oligarchs can't remain oligarchs if the world goes up in flames.

The whole narrative is self defeating.

Well it sounds like we can agree that whoever's culpable here is extremely sort sighted.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Who the hell would work for zero dollars?

Indeed. I ask myself that every time someone votes 'Republican'.

 

[Milton Platt]

A joke thread caused me to remember something I had read a while ago. The Republican Party has socialist roots reaching back to Abraham Lincoln. Of course I know that a number of people will immediately jump in to claim that "no no, it cannot be so". But the quotes I found could have been made by AOC today. So I'll enjoy what I found.

Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. Capital has its rights, which are as worthy of protection as any other rights.”

Lincoln believed in protecting the American worker from capitalistic exploitation and ensuring that wealth was distributed evenly throughout the country. Lincoln was one of the first Democratic Socialists in American history. https://www.quora.com/Was-Abraham-Lincoln-a-socialist

These capitalists generally act harmoniously, and in concert, to fleece the people, and now, that they have got into a quarrel with themselves, we are called upon to appropriate the people's money to settle the quarrel. Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln. Volume 1.

I thought the idea of socialism was to share the fruits of your labor???

 

[sun rise]

Well he was talking about slavery.

Not lazy millenials that want $15 an hour so they don't have to quit smoking pot and get a real job.

Clearly you've never met a single mom who is trying to survive and raise a child but can only get a minimum wage job.

 

[sun rise]

It's absolutely amazing how that humongous lie got quite a fair number of gullible people who actually believe in that fallacious claptrap.

Utterly and totally wrong and fallacious claptrap of the first order.

 

[sun rise]

It doesn't make sense that Ford was giving employees more money so that
they could buy his cars.

History says that he did it because labor turnover was so high. Increasing wages decreased turnover and thus training costs.

Lincoln was referring to Big Government who steals money,

That's not what he said. Why not respond to what he said.

Relativistically speaking, The definition of socialism (as used primarily in the U.S.) has changed to the extent that anyone who believes in the necessity of the existence of a state even to protect public order is now a "socialist".

True

Having no minimum wage law only means that wages float according to supply & demand.

And those that can't live on the result can just sicken and die. It's too bad but profit is more important than human lives.

 

[sun rise]

The Republicans were the first to give freedom to the slaves and Lincoln was a Republican; later on in the Southern states (which were Democrat) they wanted to give voting rights to the blacks so that's why nowadays the Southern states are generally Republican.

I normally vote Democrat but my two favourite Republican Presidents were Abe Lincoln and Ronald Reagan

And that's a classic example of how the two parties switched positions. The south did not change but the parties switched so the south went Republican.

 

[Revoltingest]

And those that can't live on the result can just sicken and die. It's too bad but profit is more important than human lives.

Odd....no one who ever worked for me died from being paid market wages.
Moreover, I don't know anyone who died from low wages.

 

[sun rise]

promoting climate change.

You mean acknowledging that adding CO2 to the atmosphere does cause climate change which is elementary and basic physics. That is only denied by those who do not understand and hate the facts that science discovers. And thus put political correctness over evidence. Try denying that putting your fingers in a fire will burn them. Fire does not care. Neither does CO2 (and other gases).

 

[sun rise]

Odd....no one who ever worked for me died from being paid market wages.
Moreover, I don't know anyone who died from low wages.

So you know for a fact that everyone who worked for you was able to afford enough health care to be cured of a disease that would have killed him or her if it had not been treated. And you know for a fact that everyone who worked for you was able to afford good food to avoid the health problems and subsequent death from eating poor quality but cheap food.

 

[Revoltingest]

So you know for a fact that everyone who worked for you was able to afford enough health care to be cured of a disease that would have killed him or her if it had not been treated. And you know for a fact that everyone who worked for you was able to afford good food to avoid the health problems and subsequent death from eating poor quality but cheap food.

I knew them all personally (small company).
None died while in my employ.
As for food, I saw some bad choices, but not due to lack of funds.

 

[Enoch07]

Clearly you've never met a single mom who is trying to survive and raise a child but can only get a minimum wage job.

Well she should have kept her d**k in her pants and she wouldn't be a single mom. She could have put that time and effort into education/training for a decent career. Her irresponsibility is not my problem.