about the new testament

[syo]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'disillusioned' here.

Have you read any of the Gnostic texts? Or Josephus, Tacitus, Seutonius? The last three are definitely contemporary historians, mostly interested in other topics, but they do make mention of Jesus and/or Christians.

No, I haven't. I only read the nt. Nothing historical in the new testament.

 

[Kenny]

Thank you for the reply. My question is

What is a good reason I should accept miracles as facts? What do I gain?

Well... I remember sitting in a bar appropriately called Mac's Zoo room staring into a drink called a Tom Collins and wondering to myself, "Where are all the miracles that I have heard about, mentioned in the Bible".

Never saw one.

Then, years later, having given my life to Jesus we have had (and, in a sense, what we gained):

1. Healing for my body and that of my daughter
2. Supernatural provision
3. Restoration of a failing marriage in 24 hours
4. visions and dreams.
5. (not to mention that I know that I am one with God)

What have we also witnessed?

1. A friend born without an eardrum, without the outer ear (except for an ear lobe) and without a hole (verified by ex-rays and doctors since childhod) and then, after prayer, a new eardrum (verified by doctors and the fact that now she can hear0-
2. A friend whose diagnosis was "don't have babies and don't lift anything over 5lbs" because she broke her back in a skying trip and three doctor tries to bridge it failed. John Hopkins Hospital later reported "miracle" because it was no longer there - and two babies later.

and so many such as these

Not that you have to live with miracles... it is just nice to have them

 

[Polymath257]

No, I haven't. I only read the nt. Nothing historical in the new testament.

Well, if you are interested in the topic, I think it is almost required to read Josephus. Tacitus and Seutonius only mention Christians in passing, but they would give an idea of the culture.

The gnostic and other texts really should be read as part of an understanding of what was going on at the time.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes, and both seem to be interpolations.

To the best of my knowledge, that is not the consensus. This is a worthwhile resource.

Also, from Wikipedia:

The first and most extensive reference to Jesus in the Antiquities, found in Book 18, states that Jesus was the Messiah and a wise teacher who was crucified by Pilate. It is commonly called the Testimonium Flavianum.[1][3][4] Almost all modern scholars reject the authenticity of this passage in its present form, while the majority of scholars nevertheless hold that it contains an authentic nucleus referencing the execution of Jesus by Pilate, which was then subject to Christian interpolation and/or alteration.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] The exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear, however.[11][12]

Modern scholarship has largely acknowledged the authenticity of the second reference to Jesus in the Antiquities, found in Book 20, Chapter 9, which mentions "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James."[13] This reference is considered to be more authentic than the Testimonium.[14][1][15][16][17][18]​

 

[Polymath257]

To the best of my knowledge, that is not the consensus. This is a worthwhile resource.

Also, from Wikipedia:

The first and most extensive reference to Jesus in the Antiquities, found in Book 18, states that Jesus was the Messiah and a wise teacher who was crucified by Pilate. It is commonly called the Testimonium Flavianum.[1][3][4] Almost all modern scholars reject the authenticity of this passage in its present form, while the majority of scholars nevertheless hold that it contains an authentic nucleus referencing the execution of Jesus by Pilate, which was then subject to Christian interpolation and/or alteration.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] The exact nature and extent of the Christian redaction remains unclear, however.[11][12]

Modern scholarship has largely acknowledged the authenticity of the second reference to Jesus in the Antiquities, found in Book 20, Chapter 9, which mentions "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James."[13] This reference is considered to be more authentic than the Testimonium.[14][1][15][16][17][18]​

I do want to be clear. I do think there was a historical Jesus. The basic story of an itinerant teacher/preacher fits quite well into the history of that location and time. I am more interested in how the legend grew to become what we see in the NT.

 

[syo]

Well... I remember sitting in a bar appropriately called Mac's Zoo room staring into a drink called a Tom Collins and wondering to myself, "Where are all the miracles that I have heard about, mentioned in the Bible".

Never saw one.

Then, years later, having given my life to Jesus we have had (and, in a sense, what we gained):

1. Healing for my body and that of my daughter
2. Supernatural provision
3. Restoration of a failing marriage in 24 hours
4. visions and dreams.
5. (not to mention that I know that I am one with God)

What have we also witnessed?

1. A friend born without an eardrum, without the outer ear (except for an ear lobe) and without a hole (verified by ex-rays and doctors since childhod) and then, after prayer, a new eardrum (verified by doctors and the fact that now she can hear0-
2. A friend whose diagnosis was "don't have babies and don't lift anything over 5lbs" because she broke her back in a skying trip and three doctor tries to bridge it failed. John Hopkins Hospital later reported "miracle" because it was no longer there.

and so many such as these

Not that you have to live with miracles... it is just nice to have them

Nice! I also spoke with a lot of people witnessing miracles. Miracles may happen the moment we speak. Maybe, the use of the nt is exclusively the miracles.
Heh, i do believe the nt is fiction and jesus never existed as a person BUT i won't ''stop'' the miracles.

 

[Polymath257]

No, I haven't. I only read the nt. Nothing historical in the new testament.

I think that is a rather narrow view of it. there are *pieces* that are likely historical. There are others that are almost certainly legend. And there is a lot that is mostly preaching and rhetoric.

ALL ancient texts have to be taken with a mind to what culture they came from and what they were trying to achieve. Even the practice of history was not seen in the same way as we do. Instead, it was often seen as a sequence of morality tails to teach the young how to act, NOT as what we would regard as historical fact.

I'd also suggest reading something like Ceasar's writings about his own campaigns. They are a wonderful example of ancient propaganda.

 

[syo]

I think that is a rather narrow view of it. there are *pieces* that are likely historical. There are others that are almost certainly legend. And there is a lot that is mostly preaching and rhetoric.

ALL ancient texts have to be taken with a mind to what culture they came from and what they were trying to achieve. Even the practice of history was not seen in the same way as we do. Instead, it was often seen as a sequence of morality tails to teach the young how to act, NOT as what we would regard as historical fact.

I'd also suggest reading something like Ceasar's writings about his own campaigns. They are a wonderful example of ancient propaganda.

about the nt...

we have fiction now. why not the ancients?

 

[Kenny]

Nice! I also spoke with a lot of people witnessing miracles. Miracles may happen the moment we speak. Maybe, the use of the nt is exclusively the miracles.
Heh, i do believe the nt is fiction and jesus never existed as a person BUT i won't ''stop'' the miracles.

Yes... it is a choice. We all have our own personal journey in this lifetime.

 

[Kenny]

about the nt...

we have fiction now. why not the ancients?

But don't we also have non-fiction now... why not the ancients?

 

[syo]

But don't we also have non-fiction now... why not the ancients?

Modern people think that the ancients didn't have fiction writtings. Archaeologists are searching of Troy

 

[Kenny]

When I gave my life to Jesus, I did it on the premise of three point:

1. My life is going from bad to worse
2. It won't hurt me to believe
3. The Bible is either true or false. I will start with the hypothesis that it is true and then test the sucker. I will find out soon enough if it is false.

I'm still testing...

But if I go on the premise "It is fiction" - then what have I learned? I'm reading it within the context of purely fiction and that is all that it will be for me.

Another example. If I had a bonafide hundred dollar bill and simply said "it is false" - then I would never discover the potential of the 100 dollar bill because I never used it believing it is false.

My point being, and you can use this in any faith, don't just start by saying "it is fiction" unless you KNOW it is fiction - like the Spaghetti Monster.

 

[syo]

When I gave my life to Jesus, I did it on the premise of three point:

1. My life is going from bad to worse
2. It won't hurt me to believe
3. The Bible is either true or false. I will start with the hypothesis that it is true and then test the sucker. I will find out soon enough if it is false.

I'm still testing...

But if I go on the premise "It is fiction" - then what have I learned? I'm reading it within the context of purely fiction and that is all that it will be for me.

Another example. If I had a bonafide hundred dollar bill and simply said "it is false" - then I would never discover the potential of the 100 dollar bill because I never used it believing it is false.

My point being, and you can use this in any faith, don't just start by saying "it is fiction" unless you KNOW it is fiction - like the Spaghetti Monster.

Thanks for sharing!

My only problem is that through time many people were killed over the nt... Nt should be something of a choice. nt is not the rule. in my opinion.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I do want to be clear. I do think there was a historical Jesus. The basic story of an itinerant teacher/preacher fits quite well into the history of that location and time. I am more interested in how the legend grew to become what we see in the NT.

I agree. I simply want us to be clear on Josephus as well.

 

[Polymath257]

about the nt...

we have fiction now. why not the ancients?

Well, novels as we know them are a MUCH later invention. The ancients had stories, usually about gods, goddesses, heroes, etc. And their history also had many of the aspects of educative fiction.

One thing to remember is that books were incredibly expensive. They had to be copied by hand. So the vast majority of people did not read. They got their stories orally, by talking in the marketplace, or by speakers that taught various doctrines.

The rich were, often, better off on this score and, depending on the specific time, most of the rich might be literate.

But if you compare the Biblical stories to the other literature at the time, it does not fit into the 'fiction' category as much as it does into the 'mystery religion' category.

 

[Polymath257]

Modern people think that the ancients didn't have fiction writtings. Archaeologists are searching of Troy

Um, they found Troy.

 

[Kenny]

Thanks for sharing!

My only problem is that through time many people were killed over the nt... Nt should be something of a choice. nt is not the rule. in my opinion.

Yes... many have killed over it. Indisputable.

But what "people" did, doesn't invalidate what Jesus did or said. Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus say, "Kill your enemy for my name sake" - on the contrary, he basically said "love your enemy for my name sake".

 

[Polymath257]

I agree. I simply want us to be clear on Josephus as well.

Fair enough. From my own reading of it, there might be a *core* from Josephus in the one quote, but it is also clear that most of it is NOT from Josephus. The second, referring to James, the brother of Jesus is also likely to have a core, but my understanding is that the phrase 'also called Christ' is likely to be interpolation. James himself was fairly well known, so having a brother put to death would have been notable.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Fair enough. From my own reading of it, there might be a *core* from Josephus in the one quote, but it is also clear that most of it is NOT from Josephus.

I'm not clear what that means, but I'm also not clear that there's much to be gained by pursuing the matter.

 

[Trailblazer]

However, you've opened a can of worms here. You'll probably be bombarded by Christians. Maybe Muslims and Baha'is, too. Good luck.

I am one Bahai who will agree that most of the NT is fiction.
I believe that Jesus existed, but not the one depicted in the NT, and especially not the one who rose from the dead. I believe that all the resurrection stories are completely fictional. Moreover, I believe that those who wrote the stories perpetrated a crime against humanity...
Now the Christians can pile on, I don't care.