About Judaism and the Messiah question

[Ehav4Ever]

Whereas the Almighty took action against Israel's enemies, He also took action against those Jews who offered worship not approved by the Almighty, didn't He? At least in the times before the desecration of the temple by the Romans in the 1st century CE.

Yes, and the action of exile was for the sake of causing a return to the Torah. Both exiles actually had that effect. For example, some of the sects that started up prior to both exiles literally disappeared pretty quickly prior to and right after the exile.

Again, Hashem always provided a way for the Torah to be kept properly in every generation. If not, there would be Jews today. Yet, there are Jews today....we are still here and those of who keep Torath Mosheh know what to do when there are Jews who don't keep it. We also know what to do to help lost Jews return to the Torah.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, and the action of exile was for the sake of causing a return to the Torah. Both exiles actually had that effect. For example, some of the sects that started up prior to both exiles literally disappeared pretty quickly prior to and right after the exile.

Again, Hashem always provided a way for the Torah to be kept properly in every generation. If not, there would be Jews today. Yet, there are Jews today....we are still here and those of who keep Torath Mosheh know what to do when there are Jews who don't keep it. We also know what to do to help lost Jews return to the Torah.

OK. Other religions, let's say, have their accounts also of conversion and persecution. The holy scriptures have been kept alive, preserved, through the centuries. I'm glad I learned what I learned. It wasn't easy. I won't go into detail, but I was very happy when I learned that one day this earth will be a beautiful place for all who live. Isaiah 48 and even Genesis show this to be true. I am so happy to know this. So be well. (Genesis 3:15 - Psalm 37 and many others)

 

[rosends]

Re-educated? Do you mean after the resurrection?

No, after death.

 

[rosends]

Actually I'm asking you since you should know what your religious authorities are telling you, shouldn't you?

You asked why other people believe differently. This is not about my religious authorities. This is about others' minds. Why should I know that? You then ask about why I don't worry about people who come to different opinions. Why should I? Then you ask what is there for me to judge and this is obvious - the motivations and consequences of others' decisions. Why should I offer an explanation for their actions and thoughts? I have already told you what end will result. You asked me about it on the previous message.

 

[rosends]

OK, then -- what do your particular authorities say about those who practice homosexuality, or are fornicators and adulterers? (Do you know?)

About them in what context? Whether their prayers are efficacious? Whether they can be counted towards a quorum? Whether they like chocolate or vanilla? Your question is way too broad.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, and the action of exile was for the sake of causing a return to the Torah. Both exiles actually had that effect. For example, some of the sects that started up prior to both exiles literally disappeared pretty quickly prior to and right after the exile.

Again, Hashem always provided a way for the Torah to be kept properly in every generation. If not, there would be Jews today. Yet, there are Jews today....we are still here and those of who keep Torath Mosheh know what to do when there are Jews who don't keep it. We also know what to do to help lost Jews return to the Torah.

So then, whether you believe the account doesn't really matter, because then the trial that took place prior to and perhaps after the 2nd temple was destroyed and the Jews driven from the land is true. Although the Romans had basic control and jurisdiction...the Sanhedrin then was operative and functionable to a degree.

 

[YoursTrue]

About them in what context? Whether their prayers are efficacious? Whether they can be counted towards a quorum? Whether they like chocolate or vanilla? Your question is way too broad.

Nope. My question pertains to what your sages say will happen to such ones. Nothing to do with a quorum. What are you taught by your particular sages will be their fate, the eventuality of anyone now, and in particular such ones? Or -- what do you believe? Because there such were requirements and laws laid out back then that should have been followed. What about now?

 

[YoursTrue]

You asked why other people believe differently. This is not about my religious authorities. This is about others' minds. Why should I know that? You then ask about why I don't worry about people who come to different opinions. Why should I? Then you ask what is there for me to judge and this is obvious - the motivations and consequences of others' decisions. Why should I offer an explanation for their actions and thoughts? I have already told you what end will result. You asked me about it on the previous message.

OK, let me rephrase. If a person is a confirmed homosexual, or known to be an adulterer, what happens within your fold? Live and let live?

 

[YoursTrue]

About them in what context? Whether their prayers are efficacious? Whether they can be counted towards a quorum? Whether they like chocolate or vanilla? Your question is way too broad.

I think you understand my question. It isn't about kosher or non-kosher ice cream.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, after death.

If they're not alive, how can they be re-educated?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So then, whether you believe the account doesn't really matter

Beleive what account?

because then the trial that took place

What trial? That took place when?

the Sanhedrin then was operative and functionable to a degree.

A degree of operation is not good enough. Especially when there was no (נבואה) Nevuah or prophecy during the last stages of the 2nd Temple period. There wasn't a real way to win against the Roman empire long term without (נבואה).

 

[Ehav4Ever]

OK. Other religions, let's say, have their accounts also of conversion and persecution.

Good for them. Yet, there is no comparison because the Tanakh has nothing in it that claims it to be what westerners call a "religion." There is also no competition between Torah Mosheh and the religions of the world. You will notice that most of the religious debates are often devoid of Torath Mosheh Jews. There is a reason for that.

The holy scriptures have been kept alive, preserved, through the centuries.....

by Torath Mosheh Jews. You're welcome.

So be well.

You too.

 

[YoursTrue]

Beleive what account?



What trial? That took place when?



A degree of operation is not good enough. Especially when there was no (נבואה) Nevuah or prophecy during the last stages of the 2nd Temple period. There wasn't a real way to win against the Roman empire long term without (נבואה).

Although in many cases it is written that Israel did win over their enemies against formidable odds. the battle of Jericho comes to mind. There were other wars and skirmishes and usually it is recorded what and why the Israelites lost or won. But so far it's been a long time since the destruction of the temple with no rebuilding. A long time. Some of my family escaped death during WW2 and went to live in Israel. W e visited them. Ramat Gan. We went to the site of the temple, prayed by the remains of the wall. And although theories have been issued about the "Messiah's" coming, etc., clearly many are still waiting for his coming, maybe the first (or only) time? What do your sages say about that, whether it will be once or twice that a 'messiah' comes, any idea how it will happen?

 

[YoursTrue]

Good for them. Yet, there is no comparison because the Tanakh has nothing in it that claims it to be what westerners call a "religion." There is also no competition between Torah Mosheh and the religions of the world. You will notice that most of the religious debates are often devoid of Torath Mosheh Jews. There is a reason for that.



by Torath Mosheh Jews. You're welcome.



You too.

God used the nation of Israel to relay His messages. He used the prophets too. He made sure by his spirit that these documents and instructions would be recorded and preserved. That includes the accounts about Jesus, also written by Jews. There was much persecution during the centuries after Jesus died against Bible believers. The Bible speaks of Satan as an opposer of God and he certainly turned Eve and Adam against God Almighty.
Joshua uttered some very significant words shortly before his death. There were guidelines, rules, laws, to observe and worship (serve) the true God. The Israelites really weren't left on their own to make up their own commandments.

 

[rosends]

Nope. My question pertains to what your sages say will happen to such ones. Nothing to do with a quorum. What are you taught by your particular sages will be their fate, the eventuality of anyone now, and in particular such ones? Or -- what do you believe? Because there such were requirements and laws laid out back then that should have been followed. What about now?

But I answered this in my statement about re-education. So what more are you asking?

 

[rosends]

OK, let me rephrase. If a person is a confirmed homosexual, or known to be an adulterer, what happens within your fold? Live and let live?

Within my fold? I have no fold. In my neighborhood? There are other variables. Is the person running for president of the synagogue or just going to the store?

 

[rosends]

I think you understand my question. It isn't about kosher or non-kosher ice cream.

I don't think you understand your question and that's the problem.

 

[rosends]

If they're not alive, how can they be re-educated?

There is a Jewish belief about the fate of the soul after death.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

What do your sages say about that, whether it will be once or twice that a 'messiah' comes, any idea how it will happen?

Everyone who goes by the Hebrew Tanakh has the same agreement.

1. What we are working towards, waiting for, is something different than the western concept of a messiah. A future Davidic king would be a better definition.
2. Just like Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses), Yehshua bin-Nun (Joshua), Melekh Dawith ben-Yishai (King David), Melekh Shelomo ben-Dawith (King Solomon), etc. didn't have come twice for any aspect of leading Am Yisrael there is no such thing, in the Hebrew Tanakh, of a future Davidic king will need to come twice.

In terms of how things happen according to Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews and our "leaders/Rabbis/Parents/Grandparents/etc.. See the below.

1. Jews living in Israel, as a whole, desire to return to the Torah as it was given at Mount Sinai. (Torah - written and oral)
   • Similar to what the Torah states was happening among Israelis in Egypt before Hashem approached Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) to return and lead the way.
   • Some sources say that this may happen one of two ways. a) Jews living in Israel choose to return to ancient Jewish/Torah based practice/culture/text or b) Jews living in Israel find themselves with their backs completely against the wall w/o any other alternative and they desire to return to the Torah due to the inability to escape the situation by any other means.
2. A proven (נביא) prophet in the Jewish community receives something from Hashem that a particular Jewish man is the leader that Hashem has chosen. (Hashem will of course only pick someone who is proven to be an actual paternal descendeant of King David through Solomon.)
   • BTW - there are Jews today living in Israel from various communities who have families that reach back to King David through Solomon.)
3. A standing Mosaic Court/Sanhedrin is able to clarify the person is fit to be king as specified above.
   • Somewhere between the prophet and the Mosaic court an anointing with oil can happen. Thus, at this point the person is considered a Davidic King (The anointing with oil has a specific reason behind it, but it is a long explaination.)
4. Said proven halakhically Jewish Davidic descendent, who based on point 2 and 3, will receive prophecy from Hashem of what it is he is to do.
   • Just below the level that Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) had.
   • Probably on a level above Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua).
5. Using Torah based wisdom, prophecy, knowledge of science, economics, etc. said Davidic king will be able to lead the Israeli people and bring things back to they way they were between when Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses)/Yehoshua bin-Nun (Joshua) and Shlomo HaMelekh (Solomon) led.
   • At some point in the above process there is a return of all Jews, outside of the land of Israel, to Israel.
   • This does not proclude that some Jews will refuse to side with the Torah and instead decide to side with the nations they are found in. This what we call in Hebrew a type of (מינות) i.e. a self-imposed decision to distance themselves from Hashem, the Torah, and the people/nation of Israel.
6. While all of the above is happening Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews are allowed to say, "Maybe he is mashiahh." We are not allowed to say he definately is. See important note below.

Important note: Only if the above Davidic king succeeds in restoring the Torah at all levels in the land of Israel (i.e. 100% proof Hebrew Tanakh based proof that the Source of Creation supports him, government structure, social structure, Temple in Jerusalem) and brings about world peace is he actually the (משיח) Mashiahh/Davidic king who leads by Torath Mosheh. If he fails at any of the above or if he dies before completeling the ENTIRE process it is known he was not (משיח) and at most was a descendant of David who made the attempt; nothing more! If that then was the case then Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews move on as before.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And although theories have been issued about the "Messiah's" coming, etc., clearly many are still waiting for his coming, maybe the first (or only) time? What do your sages say about that, whether it will be once or twice that a 'messiah' comes, any idea how it will happen?

The following thread may help you in further answering this question.

Davidic King/Mashiahh according to Torath Mosheh Sources