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A World without Pain

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nick Soapdish, Mar 10, 2005.

  1. Nick Soapdish

    Nick Soapdish Secret Agent

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    Suppose God created a world in which pain, suffering and anguish did not exist. What would this world be like?

    Could charity exist in such a world, and if so, how would it be different?
    Do you believe we would still find meaning, purpose and fulfillment in our lives?
    If you were a fiction writer and created such a world, how would you summarize the lives of those who lived in such a world?
     
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  2. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    PAIN is something of a paradox. It can constitute a dreaded affliction. Or it can serve as a real protection.​





    The sensation of pain causes us immediately to draw our hand away from an object that is so hot it would damage our flesh. This sensation of pain—this marvelous warning mechanism of the body—is not what the Bible is speaking about when it promises that "neither will . . . pain be anymore."—Rev. 21:4.​

    What the Bible refers to here is the nagging, chronic pain that makes daily life miserable for literally hundreds of millions of people and causes them to spend billions of dollars in the quest for relief. What a blessing it will be when never again does a person suffer with arthritis, a headache, an earache, a toothache, or is plagued by any other kind of sickness or injury!

    "I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: ‘Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.’"—Rev. 21:1-4.​

    There it is—a promise from God that ‘pain will be no more,the promises in the bible always come true, even those promised for the future will come true (Isaiah25;8) (1corinthians 15;26) (2peter 3;13)
    And the One seated on the throne said: "Look! I am making all things new." Also, he says: "Write, because these words are faithful and true.(revelation 21;5) when jesus was on the earth ,he showed on a small scale when he performed miracles of healing , how it will be on a large scale when Gods kingdom makes all things new .so rather than being viction this will happen and i cant wait(Isaiah 65; 17, 21-23)





     
  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I don't know if you have ever seen, in the States, a comedy called 'Little Britain' ? - the only reason I mention the comedy is that one of the characters heeps saying, "Yeah but, no but, yeah but................". This is how I fell about this topic. It is a very interesting one, because it brings up so many arguments. I even started replying half an hour ago, then decided to go away, have a good think, and then come back to it.

    No suffering and anguish ? It sounds fabulous; but like with all things, there are positives and negatives. I think that part of the learning curve of humanity includes access to each and every emotion; each and every experience. Take some element out of that, and I am not sure what we would be like.

    With my own slant on my religious views, I feel that we do all need to experience everything - well, as much as possible. Without pain, the appreciation of Good health would be meaningless; without sorrow, similarly, joy would mean nothing.

    Would we still find fulfillment in our lives ?

    Ican see that those devout enough to give their time to charities, those who help the sick, those who work in third world countries, 'Médecins sans frontière' - none of these would exist. Without these opportunities for us to develop as humane humans, we would be greatly lacking in positive aspects and experience.

    God's world (and I do call it God's world, with apologies and respectfor anyone who does not subscribe to 'God'), has pain and anguish 'built in'; animals feed on each other. We've all seen the programmes on television where a lioness catches up with a gazelle, and rips it's throat open. That is nature. that is the part of nature that fuels our need to survive, to better ourselves, to develop skills from our needs.

    If I was a writer, I would have to summatize the lives of the people as 'unfulfilled, without purpose - boring, even'.

    And don't forget that I speak as one who knows physical and mental pain; as do most of the population odf the world.

    Still, images of Ethiopia, Darfur, The Congo, South America, ..... - well, I could go on forever, couldn't I ? - are flashing through my mind . I don't know. The world in the question doesn't exist, and no one could ever be able to forecast how a change would affect something as intrinsic as our world without experiencing it.

    One last thought; we thought Tuberculosis was a thing of the past; we stopped giving our children vaccines for TB; what has happened ? Nature has come back with TB in full vengence; it is now a 'new danger' again. Medication (antibiotics) are having less and less effect on bacterial infections than they used to.

    Perhaps this is Yin & yan.:)
     
  4. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    I'm wondering if maybe He did create a world without pain.... then the Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit.... then...

    Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, I will greatly increase your sorrow and your conception. In pain you shall bear sons, and your desire shall be toward your husband, and he shall rule over you. 17 And to Adam He said, Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it! The ground is cursed for your sake. In pain shall you eat of it all the days of your life. 18 It shall also bring forth thorns and thistles to you, and you shall eat the herb of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.
     
  5. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    At that time the eyes of the blind ones will be opened, and the very ears of the deaf ones will be unstopped. At that time the lame one will climb up just as a stag does, and the tongue of the speechless one will cry out in gladness."—Isaiah 35:5, 6

    No resident will say: ‘I am sick.’"—Isaiah 33:24.

    Let his flesh become fresher than in youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor."—Job 33:25.
    The wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. They will not do any harm or cause any ruin."—Isaiah 11:6-9.​

    "For them I shall certainly conclude a covenant in that day in connection with the wild beast of the field and with the flying creature of the heavens and the creeping thing of the ground . . . I will make them lie down in security."—Hosea 2:18.
    What a marvelous outlook for the future! What real purpose lives can now have when anchored to the solid hope that in God’s new world all of today’s problems will forever be things of the past! "The former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart." (Isaiah 65:17) And how comforting to know that life then will be eternal: "[God] will actually swallow up death forever."—Isaiah 25:8.



     
  6. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Yes , you are right ,it was not Gods original purpose for pain to be in the world
    Although God has permitted imperfection and suffering for a long time from the human viewpoint, he will not allow bad conditions to go on indefinitely. The Bible tells us that God has a specific time period for allowing these things to happen.​

    "For everything there is an appointed time." (Ecclesiastes 3:1) When God’s allotted time for permitting wickedness and suffering comes to its conclusion, then he will intervene in human affairs. He will bring an end to wickedness and suffering and will fulfill his original purpose to have the earth filled with a perfect, happy human family enjoying total peace and economic security amid Paradise conditions.

     
  7. retrorich

    retrorich SUPER NOT-A-MOD

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    Too bad they weren't on the atkins diet. :rolleyes:
     
  8. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Just think, if Atkins had another 'a' in his name, it would sound like cannibals (Ate kins?):jiggy:
     
  9. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    The bit about women having pain in childbirth because they ate the apple is actually just a story to explain why female humans have so much pain while other mammals don't seem to, when actually its caused by the hip adapting to bipedal walking.

    The idea of God having an allotted time when he'll allow pain and suffering seems ludicrous to me, why, just why? There's absolutely no reason for God to condemn the people who live in the current age to suffering, but relieve future generations from it. Is it an experiment God is running or what? How can anyone believe God would even contemplate such a thing?
     
  10. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    [PART QUOTE=Halcyon]The bit about women having pain in childbirth because they ate the apple is actually just a story to explain why female humans have so much pain while other mammals don't seem to, when actually its caused by the hip adapting to bipedal walking.
    [/QUOTE]
    Perhaps someone can help me here; I distinctly remember that it was a French King who decreed that his queen should be lying down when giving birth, and that is why it 'became the fashion'.

    There is far less pain ( I am told, never having been through it myself) in giving birth standing up; the African women always did so. In fact, I remember a native woman giving bith in the Congo (in Hospital - yet another case of 'we know better than you'); when the doctor went to see how she was doing after half an hour or so, he was astounded to find her bed empty; she was in fact up a coconut palm, collecting coconuts for the rest of familly.........:)
     
  11. angellous_evangellous

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    Well, assuming that the Christian testimony is true, there will be a world without pain in the next life, in the kingdom of God. See Rev. 21. However, there is an entry fee, see John 3.16 and John 11.25.

    I will join efforts with anyone to make this life better for everyone, but I am not optimistic enough in humanity to think that we can establish a world for ourselves without pain... we must look to something greater...
     
  12. Nick Soapdish

    Nick Soapdish Secret Agent

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    I have had very similar thoughts as well. How could a mother get satisfaction for caring for her child if that child could not hunger or feel pain? Without pain and suffering our freewill would be hollow and without any sense of urgency.

    If you assume that God exists then you would have to agree that something as ugly as pain must have some crucial purpose in the world. Part of me agrees with May and Snowbear in believing it is tied very closely with us being creatures who have been separated from God.

    Pain exists because there are consequences for our sins. It gives our world a certain dichotomy so that our choices between right and wrong are lucid. Our will must overcome our ego so that we may conquer that which inflicts agony.

    God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world. -- C.S. Lewis
     
  13. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    The bibles promise is to live on the earth according to Gods original purpose . yes, mankind and the original opposer satan have messed things up somewhat,but Gods purpose has not changed ,he will acomplish this though Jesus , as king of the heavenly kingdom .all of the promises in the bible will be accomplished. promises such as ---The rightous themselves will possess the earth and they will reside forever upon it(psalm 37;29)and psalm 37;11) But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth and they will indeed find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.and (psalm 37;34) hope in Jehovah and keep his way and he will exalt you to take posession of the earth.when the wicked ones are cut off, you will see it.so i am looking forward to hopefully see Gods purpose be accomplished.
    For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. (isaiah 45;18)

    And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away(revelation 21; 1-4)

     
  14. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    2 Pet. 3:13: "There are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

     
  15. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    much like The Matrix we already aborted that program w/ Eden...
     
  16. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    It might be like finally arriving to DisneyWorld but someone took out the It’s A Small World ride, The Haunted Mansion attraction and all the Disney merchandise.

    To elaborate on that example, I believe that we know all these earthly emotions exist before we arrive here. I think we come here to experience them because they do not exist anywhere else. If these challenges did not exist I do not think our physical existence would be much of a “vacation”.
     
  17. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    If we had a world without physical pain, we would have no feeling at all because pain is just a relative experience of nervous stimulation - so no pain means no physical pleasure of any kind as well.

    Same goes for emotional pain, without the lows how can you appreciate the highs, without hate how can you know love, without fear how can you know peace?

    Heaven would be a pretty boring place without pain.
     
  18. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    what about the pain of war , there is nothing good about people getting killed because of manmade war. i am looking foreward to the time when there will not be any more war.


    He (God)is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth.(psalm 46;9)





     
  19. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    A world without pain is death.

    Pain lets you know you are alive.
    What pleasure can there be without pain? You are strenthened by your challanges and pains, without them you are stagnant and weak.
    The pain of childbirth was the womans proof of her strength and courage, we bear more intence pain with more dignity than most men can imagine. For my people that commanded a great deal of respect, women were honored for thier bravery and strength, not told they were being punnished. ;)
    (not to say that men can't or don't bear pain well... but my fince is a bit of a baby when he gets hurt or sick ;) )

    for my people war eaven had its place. It was a way for men to test themselves, thier bravery and skill. Great deeds were done (usually involving foiling your enemies by skill or inteligence rather than brute force) and songs and tales were inspired.

    anyway, I'm not sure a world without pain is a world that is truely worthwhile. Why take risks if there is no risk? Happyness and prosperity are a joy because they are contrasted by sadness and pain.

    wa:do
     
  20. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    And no resident will say i am sick,the people in the land will be those pardoned for there error(Isaiah 33;24)

    down the middle of its broad way. And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing twelve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations.(Revelation 22;2)Jehovahs promises are for the curing of the nations what a wonderful hope to look foreward to

     
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