A Tibetan Monk sets himself on fire as protest

[Yeshe Dawa]

I never said anything about retrieving the duck. Let it rot.

Fine then. Duck is really greasy anyway. (yuck).

Peace and blessings,
Yeshe
:flower2:

 

[YmirGF]

Hi YmirGF!

This is from the paceebene.org website, Take the Vow for Nonviolence:

Q. Isn’t nonviolence too naïve and impractical of an approach to our complex world?
A. The world is a projection of our collective consciousness. If enough of us are nonviolent, the world will be more peaceful. The psychological frame of “impractical” reflects history of past failures based on limited consciousness, so by its very nature that framing cannot fathom emerging potentialities.
It is the very notion that it is a naïve and impractical idea that prevents us from creating this peaceful reality.

:flower:So while I take your comment as the greatest of praises, I cannot take credit for the idea.:flower:

Peace and blessings,
Yeshe
:flower2:

Though I have no real problem with non-violence, I do have reservations about proponents of non-violence who often exhibit a very limited understanding of human nature. The day we stop fighting for what we believe in is the day our species begins to die off.

 

[sandandfoam]

Your post adds new meaning to the word naive.

Condescension is beneath you.

 

[sandandfoam]

Though I have no real problem with non-violence, I do have reservations about proponents of non-violence who often exhibit a very limited understanding of human nature. The day we stop fighting for what we believe in is the day our species begins to die off.

Hi Ymir,
In this statement you exhibit a complete failure to understand what non-violence is about.
It is impossible to discuss a concept when one of the parties doesn't know what the concept is.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I think that trying to stop violence with violence is like trying to calm the ripples in a pond by throwing more rocks into the water.

I think that nonviolence is like a cancer patient refusing chemotherapy.

We don't, nor should we ever, give chemotherapy to a healthy person. Chemotherapy is basically poison. Yet it's necessary in the fight against cancer, so that the cancer doesn't kill the person afflicted with it.

And even though there are cases when it won't prevail, it's certainly better than not trying.

 

[Me Myself]

I think that nonviolence is like a cancer patient refusing chemotherapy.

We don't, nor should we ever, give chemotherapy to a healthy person. Chemotherapy is basically poison. Yet it's necessary in the fight against cancer, so that the cancer doesn't kill the person afflicted with it.

And even though there are cases when it won't prevail, it's certainly better than not trying.

I know two people who´ve had cancer.

This two people didn´t use chemo to get trated, and they were both in dangerous phases.

THey healed by using alternative methods of medicine and are alive.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I know two people who´ve had cancer.

This two people didn´t use chemo to get trated, and they were both in dangerous phases.

THey healed by using alternative methods of medicine and are alive.

Yes... and non-violence worked for Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr.

But there are many situations in which non-violence (alternative methods of medicine) should not be recommended and will not work.

To think that the answer to one problem is the answer to all problems isn't very practical or responsible.

 

[Me Myself]

To think that the answer to one problem is the answer to all problems isn't very practical or responsible.

I agree with that piece of reasoning, and I agree with the above to an extent.

I do beleive non-violence is the answer much more times that people think it is.

Ahimsa btw, generaly is not meant to "solve" the problem but to not create new ones. Most if not all the doctrines that teach ahimsa(at least by using that word) also beleive in karma, so bad stuff wouldn´t even happen to you to begin with if you haven´t done bad stuff. So it would be contraproducent to fight it off with more bad stuff.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Ahimsa btw, generaly is not meant to "solve" the problem but to not create new ones. Most if not all the doctrines that teach ahimsa(at least by using that word) also beleive in karma, so bad stuff wouldn´t even happen to you to begin with if you haven´t done bad stuff. So it would be contraproducent to fight it off with more bad stuff.

That only goes so far, and is very inapplicable in certain situations.

Example:

It's hard to make a case that rape victims had it coming to them.

I also would find it hard to suggest that a would-be rape victim should meet her attacker with non-violence, especially if there's the chance that she can avoid becoming a victim altogether.

 

[Me Myself]

That only goes so far, and is very inapplicable in certain situations.

Example:

It's hard to make a case that rape victims had it coming to them.

I also would find it hard to suggest that a would-be rape victim should meet her attacker with non-violence, especially if there's the chance that she can avoid becoming a victim altogether.

I wouldn´t suggest it either. I don´t want to get off track, but:

1- I am just stating the principle behind it

2- people who beleive in karma would have in their minds that this today victim was probably a rapist in her past life. If it has to happen to them, there is nothing they can do about it. If they find forgiveness of their bad karma (as some, and I think few doctrines with "karma" in them think that may happen) the bad karma can´t happen, not matter how much the perpetrator tries.

I know I would fight back and I know I would fight any rapist if I saw him attacking a friend (well... unfortunately, that may not be true as they can treathen to kill her... but it would depend. Lets just hope I never have to mke such choice o.o *knocks on wood* )

So going back to the subject, and as I said in the quote that you answered, ahimsa is not supposed to solve the problem. An ahimsa beleiver that gets rapped would have succesfully paid a karmic debt in her mind, and in her mind, all the rage she feels is what sh made feel other people in a past life.

While I don´t think it is pretty, I think it´s much better than eternal hell.

 

[Yeshe Dawa]

people who beleive in karma would have in their minds that this today victim was probably a rapist in her past life. If it has to happen to them, there is nothing they can do about it. ahimsa is not supposed to solve the problem. An ahimsa beleiver that gets rapped would have succesfully paid a karmic debt in her mind, and in her mind, all the rage she feels is what sh made feel other people in a past life.

Hi Me Myself!

This is not quite my understanding of karma. From what I understand, karma is not the cause of our suffering. As the Buddha pointed out in his Four Noble Truths, our suffering lies in the fact that we are impermanent, we are subject to change, and we are without self. I do not think that it would be necessary for a woman to have raped someone in a previous life in order to be raped in this life. I do not fully understand karma, and from what I've learned it is almost as complex a subject as emptiness, but what little I know does not point to such a conclusion.

You were right about ahimsa - it is a passive form of nonviolence. That is why Gandhi coined the term satyagraha - truth force, which is the active form of nonviolence. Ahimsa would not be used to effect change in the world, but Gandhi demonstrated that satyagraha could work. If enough people used satyagraha, any problem could be solved without violence. :flower:

Peace and blessings,
Yeshe
:flower2:

 

[YmirGF]

Hi Ymir,
In this statement you exhibit a complete failure to understand what non-violence is about.
It is impossible to discuss a concept when one of the parties doesn't know what the concept is.

*sigh*

 

[YmirGF]

If enough people used satyagraha, any problem could be solved without violence.

Providing, of course, the "problem" you are facing isn't seeking to eliminate you.

 

[Yeshe Dawa]

Providing, of course, the "problem" you are facing isn't seeking to eliminate you.

Hi YmirGF!

I would say even then. If someone dies for a cause by practicing nonviolence, is that any different then a footsoldier who dies in a war? Just because someone practices nonviolence doesn't mean they can't get hurt or killed. A violent enemy can be changed through satyagraha, if the users of satyagraha are numerous and determined enough, just like the winners of a battle will be.

Peace and blessings,
Yeshe
:flower2:

 

[sandandfoam]

*sigh*

Seems I was mistaken in my appraisal.
Apologies.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Hi YmirGF!

I would say even then. If someone dies for a cause by practicing nonviolence, is that any different then a footsoldier who dies in a war? Just because someone practices nonviolence doesn't mean they can't get hurt or killed. A violent enemy can be changed through satyagraha, if the users of satyagraha are numerous and determined enough, just like the winners of a battle will be.

Peace and blessings,
Yeshe
:flower2:

The more users of satyagraha that die because of their non violence, the harder it becomes for them to be numerous enough.

If you've got an enemy determined to destroy you, your willingness to die will not likely work in persuading them to stop killing you.

 

[Yeshe Dawa]

The more users of satyagraha that die because of their non violence, the harder it becomes for them to be numerous enough.

If you've got an enemy determined to destroy you, your willingness to die will not likely work in persuading them to stop killing you.

Hi Poisonshady313!

I think that quite the opposite happens. People dying for a cause through nonviolence will gain more support for the cause. Also, I'm not advocating just sitting there and taking a bullet or anything like that. Nonviolence calls for creative solutions. Just like an army that is vastly outnumbered doesn't engage the superior force in open battle, neither should the nonviolent. Nonviolent doesn't = stupid. Retreats and types of nonviolent "guerilla" action might be necessary. But in the end, no matter what happens, the alternative - more war and killing - is not acceptable. If I'm going to be killed, it's going to be for trying to bring more peace into the world, not war.

Peace and blessings,
Yeshe
:flower2: