A split thread: Joseph Smith

[Sapiens]

Sapien and outhouse, please read this letter and tell me what you think about it?

State of Illinois Expresses Regret for Expulsion of Saints.

A delegation of Illinois government officials met with church leaders and members of the media on 7 April 2004 to officially express regret for the events that happened nearly 160 years ago. Beginning in early 1846, approximately 20,000 members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints were forced out of Illinois, which was the start of what would become the “largest forced migration in American history,” according to Resolution 793 of the Illinois House of Representatives. Passed with unanimous consent on 1 April 2004, the resolution expresses regret for the murder of Joseph Smith in 1844 and the ultimate expulsion of the Saints from their beloved city of Nauvoo. The resolution recognizes that “biases and prejudices of a less-enlightened age in the history of the State of Illinois caused untold hardship and trauma for the community of Latter Day Saints by distrust, violence, and inhospitable actions of a dark time in our past. On behalf of the State of Illionois, Lieutenant Governor Quinn expressed regret for the injustices suffered by the early Latter Day Saints in Illinois. “There was a day in February 1846 on Parley street [in Nauvoo] where people who were practicing their faith, were asked to leave the state and…move to another place,” said Lieutenant Governor Quinn. “it wasn’t right, we acknowledge It was wrong and express our regrets and look forward to the future.” Representative Dan Burke read Resolution 793 aloud to reporters and presented a leather bound copy to President Thomas S. Monson, first counselor in the presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

I think humor, ridicule and sarcasm are the tools that should have been used. Laughter and derision are far more effective, violence only hardens the opposition.

 

[rrosskopf]

To believe the BofM, one would conclude that Old World seeds, crops and animals were brought to America but disappeared before Columbus. Many LDS have reasoned that because the people turned against the God of the Bible and killed each other, they destroyed their own civilizations and caused their animals and crops to die off and disappear.

Although that sounds plausible on the surface, I think it is more likely that most of the seed that was brought failed to take hold on the new continent. The Spanish conquistadors had the same problem.
On a side note, I think it is fascinating that the American buffalo is closely related to the Asian Yak.

The reality is that agriculture developed independently in different parts of the world. For example, there is no book translated from magic golden plates describing people from Jerusalem taking seeds and knowledge into ancient China, teaching people there how to plant and grow crops

Objection! This witness is obviously hostile. Mormons do not believe the plates were magical in any way. Nor does the assertion prove that no one has ever taken seeds from one part of the world to another, hoping to cultivate them. Would this be a Type 2 error?

None of these plants or animals are mentioned in the BofM, and no BofM prophet predicted the agricultural contributions to the world that America's people would make.

Objection. The Book of Mormon never claims to be a manual on agriculture. Additionally, corn is mentioned.

"And we began to till the ground, yea, even with all manner of seeds, with seeds of corn, and of wheat, and of barley, and with neas, and with sheum, and with seeds of all manner of fruits; and we did begin to multiply and prosper in the land." - Mosiah 9:9

It is interesting to note that although we don't know what "sheum" is exactly, the Egyptians had a similar word sm' or shm' for "grain of upper Egypt". Egyptian influences can be found throughout the Book of Mormon.

Likewise, smelting and bronze making was not done in the region of Meso-America until nearly 400 years after the gold plates were allegedly buried and the civilization of Nephites destroyed. The Limited Geography Theory is not supported with metallurgy.

It is my understanding that gaps are fairly common, cases in which archaeology finds very little to support known history. In the case of metallurgy, the knowledge was probably passed from father to son, and jealously guarded. Early Olmec script is so rare, that I can count the examples on one hand. Why should their metallurgy be easier to find? Lack of evidence doesn't meet the same threshold for truth as actual evidence. Barley wasn't even discovered until recently. This sounds like another Type 2 error.

The BofM ends with descriptions of depraved and degenerate people who tortured and murdered each other, raped women and practiced cannabilism, even feeding women and children to their own husbands and fathers. It leaves the reader with the thought that America's indigenous people remained in that condition, waiting for the arrival of Columbus to bring the influence of Christianity. It leaves the reader thinking that the BofM and Joseph Smith were great things from God in order to improve America's indignous people.

That's a stretch. I've never once thought that modern native Americans were engaged in rape, cannibalism or human sacrifice. That is an accurate description of the Mayans, though.

More trepanned skulls have been found in the Andean region of Peru than the rest of the world together. The skulls span two thousand years, from around 400 BC to AD 1500, showing improvements in surgical techniques and a remarkable increase in the survival of patients to a level that rivals that under today's surgeons.

Yes, I've been to Peru. It is nothing short of amazing what the Incan could do. Their stonework and medical skill was substantial. Their metallurgical skills were also significant. I would strongly be inclined to consider them, as have others before me, as a possible place for the Book of Mormon were it not for dozens of details that fit the Mesoamerican setting much better.

The truth is quite different from mormon delusions of cursed dark skin people, depraved and wicked, killing and eating each other.

Wow. Here is a flagrant example of propaganda, with no attempts to look at things from both sides. The Mayans sacrificed men, women and children to appease their gods of war, and did practice cannibalism. They also dyed their skin black to terrify their victims. They brought the curse of dark skin upon themselves - with dye! They were constantly warring with neighboring tribes, in order to find victims to sacrifice to their gods. One would be hard pressed to find another tribe of people so completely and accurately described by the Book of Mormon. I don't believe it is a coincidence, that their rise to power coincided with the end of the Nephite civilization.

 

[rrosskopf]

March 20, 1826 - charged with being a "disorderly person." Results appear to have been disputed. (1)

June 1830 - Charged with being a "disorderly person." Found Not Guilty.(2)

June 1830 - Charged again with being a "disorderly person." Found Not Guilty (again).(2)

February 1837 - Charged with illegal banking and fined $1000. (3)

June 1837 - Charged with conspiracy to murder. Charges were dismissed.

(2)

(1) The results were disputed, because the original court records were found in 1971, which showed it to be only a hearing and not a trial.
(2) Not Guilty means that the charges were unsubstantiated
(3) His only real conviction, he was found guilty for breaking an outdated law, regarding the process for starting a bank. No fraud, no con, just a legal detail which few would understand.

January 1838 - Charged with banking fraud. Smith apparently fled the scene rather than face the music.
August 10, 1838 - Charged with threatening a judge. A grand jury hearing was scheduled, but never held due to Smith's flight from the locale.

This sounds suspiciously like double jeopardy.

 

[rrosskopf]

He seems a most unreliable and easily impeachable witness..

A witness who is hounded half to death, and never recants is unreliable and easily impeachable? You have lost me there.

 

[rrosskopf]

Long time after we have the Israelite cultures flood mythology and they turned it into a global deluge

Did they even know the earth was round? Perhaps a kinder reading of "all the earth" might be interpreted as all the ground was covered with water, i.e. all the ground that they could see. People tend to jump to conclusions, and remove events from their original context. Or perhaps the flood was global in nature, covering most of the earth. Most of the earth is still covered in water. One little asteroid in the sea, is all it would take. It must have happened dozens of times over earth history without our knowledge. Statistically, one could even say it is likely to have happened. All I am saying, is that we shouldn't exaggerate the claim to make it appear ridiculous, but read it in context.

 

[rrosskopf]

There is none, because it did not happen. Nor the exodus, nor Moses has any historicity what so ever.

How do you know? How could you know? This sounds more like a statement of faith, than objective science.

 

[rrosskopf]

Just guessing, his reputation preceded him?

The minister was his friend. Joseph was 14. What reputation do you think he had at 14?

None of the churches believed in miracles or visions or gifts of the spirit. It was common knowledge that such things disappeared with the apostles of old. Anyone who said otherwise, was likely to receive a harsh rebuke from the ministers of the day, much like Joseph Smith.

 

[rrosskopf]

No, even the ancients knew that stars and comets were different things, and they could not see asteroids.

How could you ever support such an assertion? Have you even met every ancient person? It sounds like you just like to argue, for argument's sake. Would your assertion be a Type one or Type two error?

 

[rrosskopf]

Consider that no non-LDS person would ever think that the LDS beliefs were reasonable for the reasons we have gone over above.

That's isn't true at all. Hundreds of non-LDS people join every day because they believe our beliefs are reasonable. Where did you learn logic?

 

[outhouse]

How do you know? How could you know? This sounds more like a statement of faith, than objective science.

So because you don't know, nobody does????

I know because we see early proto Israelites after 1200 BC using the Canaanite alphabet, Canaanite pottery, Canaanite mythology, and Canaanite deities.

So what your saying is you refuse credible knowledge and education, that is not even in dispute by anyone with credibility?????????

 

[outhouse]

might be interpreted as all the ground was covered with water,

NO

The books are very clear that the water went over the tops of highest mountains by X amount of feet.

YOU are ignoring my reply completely

Or perhaps the flood was global in nature,

Or perhaps it was mythology EXACTLY as I explained to you, its true origins.

It factually was not global in nature.

. One little asteroid in the sea

Then all people would be wiped out, all animals.

This event as you describe factually never took place in any time frame of Israelite culture, FACT.



Your problem is you have not studied this at all, and I have studied every detail. Now if you want to learn we would be glad to help.

If your going to stick fingers in your ear and go NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH, then you will get no help from anyone.

 

[outhouse]

Norman: Hi outhouse, thank you for responding.

Your welcome friend.

 

[Nietzsche]

How could you ever support such an assertion? Have you even met every ancient person? It sounds like you just like to argue, for argument's sake. Would your assertion be a Type one or Type two error?

Ancient astronomy, in some areas, was surprisingly advanced. In the Mediterranean, before the spread of Christianity at least, they could tell the difference between stars & comets because stars don't have tails. In India and the Far East, this was also noticed, and their star charts & other maps of the sky take into account a variety of objects. Asteroids, as others have stated, could not have been known of because they do not have "tails" until they enter an atmosphere, and are generally absolutely tiny.

A comet, though, is visible to the naked eye in many cases because it's beating heated up by the sun(that's why it has a tail, it's debris).

 

[rrosskopf]

Ancient astronomy, in some areas, was surprisingly advanced. In the Mediterranean, before the spread of Christianity at least, they could tell the difference between stars & comets because stars don't have tails. In India and the Far East, this was also noticed, and their star charts & other maps of the sky take into account a variety of objects. Asteroids, as others have stated, could not have been known of because they do not have "tails" until they enter an atmosphere, and are generally absolutely tiny.

A comet, though, is visible to the naked eye in many cases because it's beating heated up by the sun(that's why it has a tail, it's debris).

Fair enough, but a falling star is still a star.

 

[rrosskopf]

The books are very clear that the water went over the tops of highest mountains by X amount of feet.

You mean the mountains they could see? Could they see the whole world? It seems unlikely. Yet there are other references to only 8 men surviving, so it certainly seems like it was widely believed to have happened across the globe. Perhaps this was just a case where the original story was exaggerated, taken out of context. It would be beyond remarkable if every animal from llama to kangaroo to baboon were all descended from those on the ark, and somehow made it back to their own continents.

 

[outhouse]

You mean the mountains they could see? Could they see the whole world? It seems unlikely. Yet there are other references to only 8 men surviving, so it certainly seems like it was widely believed to have happened across the globe. Perhaps this was just a case where the original story was exaggerated, taken out of context. It would be beyond remarkable if every animal from llama to kangaroo to baboon were all descended from those on the ark, and somehow made it back to their own continents.

Please, stop making excuses.

There was no flood that Israelites wrote about, that is a fact. Your not listening.


I already explained to you where the mythology originated from, and how it evolved from a real attested flood.

 

[Norman]

I think humor, ridicule and sarcasm are the tools that should have been used. Laughter and derision are far more effective, violence only hardens the opposition.

Norman: Hi Sapiens, thank you for responding.

 

[Sapiens]

Although that sounds plausible on the surface, I think it is more likely that most of the seed that was brought failed to take hold on the new continent. The Spanish conquistadors had the same problem.
On a side note, I think it is fascinating that the American buffalo is closely related to the Asian Yak.

Objection! This witness is obviously hostile. Mormons do not believe the plates were magical in any way. Nor does the assertion prove that no one has ever taken seeds from one part of the world to another, hoping to cultivate them. Would this be a Type 2 error?

Objection. The Book of Mormon never claims to be a manual on agriculture. Additionally, corn is mentioned.

"And we began to till the ground, yea, even with all manner of seeds, with seeds of corn, and of wheat, and of barley, and with neas, and with sheum, and with seeds of all manner of fruits; and we did begin to multiply and prosper in the land." - Mosiah 9:9

There is no where to be found any evidence whatsoever of the exotic plants that are mentioned.

It is interesting to note that although we don't know what "sheum" is exactly, the Egyptians had a similar word sm' or shm' for "grain of upper Egypt". Egyptian influences can be found throughout the Book of Mormon.


It is my understanding that gaps are fairly common, cases in which archaeology finds very little to support known history. In the case of metallurgy, the knowledge was probably passed from father to son, and jealously guarded. Early Olmec script is so rare, that I can count the examples on one hand. Why should their metallurgy be easier to find? Lack of evidence doesn't meet the same threshold for truth as actual evidence. Barley wasn't even discovered until recently. This sounds like another Type 2 error.

There is no where to be found any evidence whatsoever of the metallurgy that is mentioned, and don't forget, metal artifacts endure.

That's a stretch. I've never once thought that modern native Americans were engaged in rape, cannibalism or human sacrifice. That is an accurate description of the Mayans, though.

Rape? Don't know about that. Cannabalism ... yes, one of the hypothesis concerning cannibalism is that it was a compensation for the missing ungulate protein sources ... ungulates that the BoM claims were here, but of which there is no sign of any sort.

Yes, I've been to Peru. It is nothing short of amazing what the Incan could do. Their stonework and medical skill was substantial. Their metallurgical skills were also significant. I would strongly be inclined to consider them, as have others before me, as a possible place for the Book of Mormon were it not for dozens of details that fit the Mesoamerican setting much better.


Wow. Here is a flagrant example of propaganda, with no attempts to look at things from both sides. The Mayans sacrificed men, women and children to appease their gods of war, and did practice cannibalism. They also dyed their skin black to terrify their victims. They brought the curse of dark skin upon themselves - with dye! They were constantly warring with neighboring tribes, in order to find victims to sacrifice to their gods.

again, one of the hypothesis concerning cannibalism is that it was a compensation for the missing ungulate protein sources.

One would be hard pressed to find another tribe of people so completely and accurately described by the Book of Mormon. I don't believe it is a coincidence, that their rise to power coincided with the end of the Nephite civilization.

There were no Nephrites. The "accurate description" is more a matter of argument from ignorance than accurate description.

 

[Sapiens]

How could you ever support such an assertion? Have you even met every ancient person? It sounds like you just like to argue, for argument's sake. Would your assertion be a Type one or Type two error?

Have you ever read anything concerning the history of astronomy?

Did you know that comets appear in ancient art a distinctly different objects than stars?

The most ancient known mythology, the Babylonian "Epic of Gilgamesh," described fire, brimstone, and flood with the arrival of a comet. The ancient Greeks saw Halley's comet in 466 B.C., making that the earliest documented observation of that comet. The Romans recorded that a fiery comet marked the assassination of Julius Caesar, and another was blamed for the extreme bloodshed during the battle between Pompey and Caesar. In England, Halley's Comet was blamed for bringing the Black Death. The Incas, in South America, even record a comet having foreshadowed Francisco Pizarro's arrival. Here's a fourth century woodcut of a comet:

 

[Sapiens]

That's isn't true at all. Hundreds of non-LDS people join every day because they believe our beliefs are reasonable. Where did you learn logic?

... and how many billions of burgers did McDonald's sell? Does that prove their nutritional value? Recruits are not exposed to your full beliefs and in most cases do not have the background to understand both sides of the issues, hell ... you did not even know that an ungulate was. Remember, I was evangelized by a pair of "elders" and a "bishop" so I know how your church is packaged and sold.

I learned logic in the Tussman Tutorial Program and the Philosophy Department, both at the University of California at Berkeley, ranked at the time as the top university in the world. Where did you learn your logic?