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A split thread: Joseph Smith

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by rrosskopf, Jan 16, 2015.

  1. Sapiens

    Sapiens Polymathematician

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    You need to read the actual study:
    Native American Mitochondrial DNA Analysis Indicates
    That the Amerind and the Nadene Populations Were Founded by
    Two Independent Migrations Antonio Torroni, et.al.

    You'll find that it does not support your contention. But rather argues that there were two waves of migration from Asia, one of what we think of as American Indians and one of what we think of as Eskimos.
     
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  2. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Loving this, Sapiens. [​IMG] Please stay with it.
     
  3. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    It's not really a constructive addition to the debate, but I'd quite like to see a stained glass window of Jesus wearing 'tennis racket' snow shoes emerging from an igloo in Jackson County, Missouri.
     
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  4. rrosskopf

    rrosskopf LDS High Priest

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    Yes, I am aware of that. What I don't see is how this threatens the Book of Mormon. The book of Ether details people coming over from Asia. The Book of Mormon never claims to account for all people who ever came to America. Nor does the study effectively rule out small influxes of other people, since the effect on the majority population would be minimal. People have been getting lost in storms since they first started building ships. To say that it couldn't happen, seems rather ridiculous, don't you think? That for thousands of years, no one ever got lost at sea? That seems more like magical thinking, than serious science.

    Michael H. Crawford, molecular anthropologist at the University of Kansas, noted that the “evidence does not preclude the possibility of some small-scale cultural contacts between specific Amerindian societies and Asian or Oceanic seafarers.” (Michael H. Crawford, The Origins of Native Americans: Evidence from Anthropological Genetics [Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1998], 4).

    A study on a 4000 year old Eskimo found in Greenland came to the conclusion that he was not from East Asia, and that others who were not from East Asia might have journied to America. (Morten Rasmussen and others, “Ancient Human Genome Sequence of an Extinct Palaeo-Eskimo,” Nature, Feb. 11, 2010, 757–62.)
     
  5. Sapiens

    Sapiens Polymathematician

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    NO LOST TRIBE OF ISRAEL!
     
  6. rrosskopf

    rrosskopf LDS High Priest

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    Oh, well then... since you put it in caps... why is it so important for you to believe that God doesn't keep his promises?

    "22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:
    23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
    24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)
    25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
    26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren."
    (Genesis 49)

    "And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed."
    (Genesis 28:14)

    "17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father’s hand, to remove it from Ephraim’s head unto Manasseh’s head.
    18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
    19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
    (Genesis 48)

    God does keep his promises, and the posterity of Joseph did become many nations in the land of America. They may have been few in number, but they became kings over nations, probably in part because of their skill and knowlege in writing, and education and religion, but also because they were led by God.
     
  7. Sapiens

    Sapiens Polymathematician

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    Your missing the point, god doesn't like since nonexistent entities can't lie per se. The point is that the man in charge of the Mormon religion from Smith on down have been telling a story that is easily falsified. Read into that what you will.
     
  8. Monk Of Reason

    Monk Of Reason ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

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    Pretty good thread. There is an answer for almost every hole. Granted its patching a hole with another hole but still. Hillarious.

    But actually on topic why do you think he was persecuted to harsly even before he became the "prophet" for Mormonism? Is it not more likely he was actually guilty?
     
  9. rrosskopf

    rrosskopf LDS High Priest

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    He wasn't persecuted at all before he told his preacher friend about the vision he had seen. His minister friend told him it was all of the devil. Persecution didn't let up when the news got around that he had found a book of gold plates. When witnesses were allowed to see the plates and the angel Moroni, things really got interesting. The first legal action against him was the 1826 hearing, where Josiah Stowell's sons accused Joseph Smith of glass looking. Smith wasn't even in Josiah Stowell's employ at the time. It was the religion that made them mad. Before the visions, and the angelic appearances, and the Book of Mormon, Joseph was known as a hard working honest young boy.

    The first acquaintance I had with Gen. Smith was about the year 1823. He came into my neighborhood, being then about eighteen years of age, and resided there two years; during which time I became intimately acquainted with him. I do know that his character was irreproachable; that he was well known for truth and uprightness; that he moved in the first circles of the community, and he was often spoken of as a young man of intelligence and good morals, and possessing a mind susceptible of the highest intellectual attainments. I early discovered that his mind was constantly in search of truth, expressing an anxious desire to know the will of God concerning His children here below, often speaking of those things which professed Christians believe in. I have often observed to my best informed friends (those that were free from superstition and bigotry) that I thought Joseph was predestinated by his God from all eternity to be an instrument in the hands of the great Dispenser of all good, to do a great work; what it was I knew not.
    (Attorney John S. Reed, May 1834)

    Even during the worst of the persecution, those who actually knew him, spoke of his character.

    Having been a boarder in General Smith's family for more than nine months, and having therefore had abundant opportunities of contemplating his character and observing his conduct, I have concluded to give you a few of my "impressions" of him.

    General Joseph Smith is naturally a man of strong mental powers, and is possessed of much energy and decision of character, great penetration, and a profound knowledge of human nature. He is a man of calm judgment, enlarged views, and is eminently distinguished by his love of justice. He is kind and obliging, generous and benevolent, sociable and cheerful, and is possessed of a mind of a contemplative and reactive character. He is honest, frank, fearless and independent, and as free from dissimulation as any man to be found.


    But it is in the gentle charities of domestic life, as the tender and affectionate husband and parent, the warm and sympathizing friend, that the prominent traits of his character are revealed, and his heart is felt to be keenly alive to the kindest and softest emotions of which human nature is susceptible; and I feel assured that his family and friends formed one of the greatest consolations to him while the vials of wrath were poured upon his head, while his footsteps were pursued by malice and envy, and reproach and slander were strewn in his path, as well as during numerous and cruel persecutions, and severe and protracted sufferings in chains and loathsome prisons, for worshiping God according to the dictates of his own conscience.
    He is a true lover of his country, and a bright and shining example of integrity and moral excellence in all the relations of life. As a religious teacher, as well as a man, he is greatly beloved by this people. It is almost superfluous to add that the numerous ridiculous and scandalous reports in circulation respecting him have not the least foundation in truth.

    (Dr. John M. Bernhisel, to Illinois Governor Ford in 1844.)
     
    #29 rrosskopf, Jan 20, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
  10. rrosskopf

    rrosskopf LDS High Priest

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    I've been studying Mormonism for over 40 years. I have yet to discover the bottom of the ocean. Nor has there been a single person that has proposed a theory to explain it all. I think you see only what you want to see.

    I have compiled the following list of evidences of authenticity for the Book of Mormon. No one alive in 1830 could have known all this.
    Book of Mormon Evidences
     
  11. Sapiens

    Sapiens Polymathematician

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    Amazing how little you've learned of truth in four decades.

    Let's just take the first claim: The Book of Mormon was found in a box of stones cemented together.

    The source is alleged to be: Joseph Smith - History 1:52

    The validation is: The Mayans and Olmecs both built stone boxes and knew how to make cement.

    The validation is sourced with: Mesoamerica and the Book of Mormon - Is this the PlaceBy Lund, P. 93 & 119

    Now, anyone, how many logical wrongs are there with this claim/validation pair?

    If no one reveals the truth before tonight, then perhaps I will. If not ... then tomorrow.
     
  12. rrosskopf

    rrosskopf LDS High Priest

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    Does this lead back to your tirade of how all Mormons are liars, but the persecutors are all telling the truth? Lund quotes non-member scholars, if you want to verify.

    If it could be shown that no one in all of North America knew how to make cement, or stone boxes, then it would be a blow to the Book of Mormon. To my knowledge, it wasn't widely known, if known at all, that the Mayans worked cement and built stone boxes. I don't believe the first book about the Mayans had even been published in English. The Book of Mormon also mentions building houses of cement. Joseph Smith couldn't build a house of cement, and popular wisdom was that the savages certainly didn't possess the knowledge. Yet houses, built from cement, have been found among the Maya, dating to the period mentioned in the Book of Mormon - 100 AD. I can't dismiss this as a coincidence. It's too specific.

    My theory, which supports the facts as far as I have determined thus far, is that the Mayans were the Lamanites spoken of in the last four hundred years of Nephite history. The Lacondan Maya trace their ancestry to Jawbone, who came across the sea. The Hebrew word for Jawbone is Lehi, the progenitor of both the Nephites and the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon. Literally dozens of significant facts pin the place to Mesoamerica. That isn't to say that artifacts discovered in the United States are not equally valid; according to the Book of Mormon, several colonies left to find homes further north. Archeologists tell us that the Mayan language was spoken as far north as Utah.
     
  13. Sapiens

    Sapiens Polymathematician

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    So you think that all non-Mormon sources that find fault are biased and dishonest. Have you checked your paranoia meter lately? I did not start of a Mormon critic, but the more I learned about Mormon, from Mormons, the crazier I saw it was.
    There is every reason to believe that the are not being clear headed or honest, your choice.
    I yet to see rational support for your claim.
    In my experience that is patently untrue.
    Not exactly unbiased free thinkers.
    Rather stretches credulity more than a little.
    They could also be utter foolishness that your straining to cover up.
    Only if you're a Mormon believer, everyone else still sees the full suite of anachronisms.
    ... and if my grandmother had two wheels she could have been a bicycle ... your reaching again.
    Sorry they are both from the same stock.
    When you have a sacred book that is supposed to serve as the basis of everything yet that contains clear and glaring errors it is hard to take any of it seriously.
     
  14. Sapiens

    Sapiens Polymathematician

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    That is a boldfaced lie on your part ... the evidence has been shown to you. Comparing yourselves to the death of millions of Jews goes way past good taste.
     
  15. Sapiens

    Sapiens Polymathematician

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    Then, once again, your knowledge base is lacking. Cement was a common building material back into the greatest days of Rome, it was not an "uncommon" skill.
    I don't think it even rises to the level of being a coincidence since there is no proof that the box in question ever existed.
    There is no independent supporting evidence for the existance or either Lamites or Nephites, these are inventions.
    This is rank unsupported foolishness.
    There are no facts in the book of Mormon ... none. It is an invented story that does not stand up to even cursory examination as we have clearly seem.
     
  16. Monk Of Reason

    Monk Of Reason ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

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    2 Things.
    1st) His first charge was four years before his publication of the book of Mormon.
    2nd) You mean the same people that followed his cult said good about his character? Not really a surprise.
     
  17. rrosskopf

    rrosskopf LDS High Priest

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    It took four years after Joseph Smith first saw the angel, before he was allowed to remove the book from the hill. He saw the angel Moroni three years after his first vision, which occurred when he was 14.
    Neither of these men became Mormons. They both lived with or near the prophet for some time. Are they not entitled to their opinions? Does their proximity to the prophet somehow nullify their value as witnesses? Does their positive opinion somehow nullify their value as witnesses? I don't think so. I think the opposite is true. Their proximity makes them great witnesses. And yes, people like Brigham Young, who knew Joseph Smith for many years, was in a great position to know his character, and we should not be quick to dismiss his testimony. Brigham Young said that Joseph Smith was the most righteous man he had ever met.
     
  18. rrosskopf

    rrosskopf LDS High Priest

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    I know it can be painful when people challenge your faith, but don't pretend that there isn't any evidence to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Many books have been written on the subject, and ignorance of such is just inexcusable. Challenge the evidence, if you will, but don't make blanket statements of faith that you have no chance of supporting.

    The Book of Mormon is filled with hundreds of material facts, many of which can be checked. Your faith that there is no God causes you to mock me when I attempt to actually view the facts. That isn't scientific.

    As reported in the Chicago Times, 7 Aug 1875, David Whitmer saw the stone box three time before it was washed down the hill in a rainstorm. Even after that, the lid could be seen at the bottom of the hill for a while.

    There was no evidence in Joseph Smith's day that any North American natives knew how to build with cement, let alone that they were expert at it in 100 AD. Back then, this was a serious charge against the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Since then, we have learned a great deal about the Mayan people, including that they built with hydraulic cement around the same time as the Romans built their aqueducts with hydraulic cement. Joseph Smith was right, and everyone else was wrong.

    Every other year it seems like some previously unknown civilization is discovered. The Book of Mormon may be the only witness to Nephites and Lamanites, but that doesn't automatically rule out the possibility that they existed. In fact, one of the Mayan cities was named Lamanai, or Laman Ayin, as archeologists will attest.
    Lamanai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Go ahead, I'm ready. Tell me that everyone in 1830 knew that, or that it was just a coincidence.
     
  19. Monk Of Reason

    Monk Of Reason ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

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    It also said that he came from a family of people who saw visions of god and in today's world would have been admitted into the psch ward as a schizophrenic. Also let me lead into this with a question to you. When did he really start getting several visions? Not at the age of 14 but what age approximately did he start to have enough visions to become a prophet? Was it his late teens or early 20's?
    Hitler also won Time Magazine's man of the year award. So... yeah I don't think that any single individual can claim that another man was righteous. I have no doubt that he possibly had good intentions but it wouldn't' make him any more right. By this logic should we all convert to Hinduism because of Gandhi?
     
  20. Nietzsche

    Nietzsche The Last Prussian
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    This is something I know a thing or two about. Cement has been found in every lasting culture on the planet. It's almost a required ability. The only thing the Romans did better than anyone else was figuring out how to make Cement that would set in water. Mixed with volcanic ash, namely. Really impressive stuff. Still holds today.

    The Mayan-Aztec-Incas, however, all possessed some manner of cement, and we have known this for centuries before the Book of Mormon. We know this because when Rome sent priests over, they noticed with great amusement, especially the Jesuits, that the Mesoamerican structures reminded them greatly of the ancient Roman areas they loved so dearly. That was what led to them going against Church Doctrine and trying to preserve as much Mesoamerican culture as they could. Common ground, or cement, rather.

    The idea that it is some "revelation" that the Mesoamerican peoples had cement is a modern one. The Spanish and such were well acquainted with the idea. Again. It would be stranger if they didn't have it.
     
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