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A simple case for intelligent design

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Well it is true that you have to know somethings about the gene before applying the test, but you don't have to know a priori if it was designed. (why is this so hard to understand for you?)...

In looking back at my original post, you omitted/ignored this:


"So this gene is 1500 bases long... there are 4 bases to pick from... So lets say the odds of this gene coming together all at once is 4^1500 - WOW! that is a HUGE number! We will then declare that therefore, no natural process could have put those 1500 bases in that order to make a gene all at once by chance!"​


I have written more than once that one can learn a lot by looking at what creationists decide not to reply to.
I interpret your omission of this in your reply to be an ADmission - that you think that evolution posits a one-shot, all at once 'evolution' of genes.

No wonder you folks are so wrong all the time.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
The reason why I said that it is just a suggestion, is because I haven’t read the 2 articles provided by Pollymath, I am just speculating that nowhere in the article will the authors deny that those proteins have the attribute of SC.
Why would they even mention it? A silly, inapplicable exercise by a theist/mathematician desperate to prop up his creationist beliefs?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Well the second is more specified than the first,
Due to a random chance mutation. Imagine that...
but it is not more complex (atleast not much more complex) therefore assuming that your starting point is “1” you can’t infer design.
Cool - so that gene was not designed, and arose via natural causes.

So I guess some genes are natural, and some not...
Consider that monkeys (chance) typing letters can eventually create words with meaning, specially is all you need is 1 additional letter (or deletion)

Cool assertion.
You should make an effort and try to understand the point, rather than trying to find holes and weaknesses in the semantics.
Right - better to accept the assertions of creationists at face value than to expect them to be able to provide evidence for their claims.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I you didn't know about the deleterious mutation, nore the ancestral genetic sequence, and thus just be confronted with the "complex & functional" sequence, then that sequence would satisfy the criteria of "specified complexity" and likely even "irreducible complexity".

The fact that I can wrongly misinterpret the data does not invalidate the test.... It simply proves that like with any other test one can make wrong assumptions and reach wrong conclusions.

To give an example, if a sample is contaminated then you will get a wrong result when dating it with radiometric dating.

But that doesn't mean that radiometric dating doesn't work, it simply means that people can wrongly assume that there is no contaminstion.

So in summery
Yes one can misinterpret the data and wrongly assume that something has the attribute of SC

But that does nothing to invalidate the claim that SC can only come from a mind.



But you don't know about what you don't know.
Granted, It could be the case that I wrongly claimed that something has the attribute of SC and therefore wrongly proclaim design.

But this mistake is detectable, you can always correct me

This shows that the test is testable and falsifiable.

But lo and behold, what process is currently unknown? Ow yes: how life can form.
Which is I don't claim 100% certainty, but as I explained before it seems possible (more likely than not) that the first living thing had the attribute of SC

This claim could be reinforced or falsified as scientist discover new stuff... Again IDists make testable and falsifiable claims.

Who's to say you're not just in the situation as with the DNA example, while not knowing about mutations nore how DNA really works?
Granted that is a possibility

There is no positive test that yields objective evidence. There is only the pointing out of scientific ignorance + expressing the opinion of "it looks designed".

That's false the claim that SC can only come from a mi d is objective and testable. So as the claim that life has thus attribute
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Again we both agree on that we need to know somethings about stuff before applying the test
Sure, but not the answer beforehand.

Q: How old is this rock?
A: We make a declaration of its age, then find a technique that matches what we declared.
Q: WHAT? Thats crazy!
A: Just kidding - element X has a half-life of Y, so lets use it to determine the age of this rock.


Q: Is this biological thing designed?
A: What is it? What does it do? If it meets my criteria for being designed based on what it is and does, then yes, it is designed.
Q: What are your criteria?
A: That is looks like it was designed using the attributes of human activity.

What you have to do is provide an argument and show that it would be a problem

What you have to do is apply the filter to a biological structure and show that the filter has merit.
So if the filter only works if you are told, using the DNA example, what the DNA is, then the filter is no more useful than asserting that it was designed.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
But that does nothing to invalidate the claim that SC can only come from a mind.
To be more accurate and honest, a human mind.
Again IDists make testable and falsifiable claims.
How do you test things?

Here are 2 sequences - 1 designed by a human (me), just an assemblage of the 4 letters representing the 4 nucleobases; one from an actual gene via Genbank:

GACAGCTCATGACCTACCTTTGTAACACACCCCTTACTTAAACCATGCATTTTCGAAATTGTCATATTCAGGTT

GTAAGCAGGTTGTGGTTGAGAAAGGAAAGTGTGAAACAGGGACCCAGAGGGAGAGGTGGGGGGATGGCGC


Apply the filter. Indicate which is which. I am telling you one of them is a functioning gene.

If this filter cannot work on unknowns, then it isn't much of a filter, is it?
That's false the claim that SC can only come from a mind is objective and testable.
A human mind, yes.

So at best, all you can conclude is design via a human.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
IDists also provide evidence and explanations for why the would infer design.
What evidence do IDcreationists provide FOR ID creation?

I have read a lot of essays and 'debates' and the like, and I have yet to see anything remotely resembling evidence.

And please do not say Behe's paper - that has already been debunked.

It is your job to read their arguments and justify why are they wrong
Weird - in my experience in actual science, it is up to the one making the claims to present the evidence to convince others.

Only ID advocates do the opposite.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
So the point that I made was that one can infer design even if you don't know the mechanism used by the designer
Do ID creationists then accept evolution claims for evolution despite no real of speculated mechanism?
Why do creationists get a pass?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Granted I can't provide a mechanism... So what,?
Amazing...
Just like it is a "pity" that you cant provide any examples of big bang mechanisms, except that nobody makes a big deal, and nobody would reject the BB just because we don't know the mechanism that caused the BB.
So why is the BB in this discussion? Didn;t you just chastise someone for a supposed red herring?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
"caused" might not even be a sensible word.

Having said that, idd, we don't know about what triggered the big bang.
But once again: there is verififiable objective evidence in support of big bang theory.
It makes very precise, very testable, predictions which can be objectively and independently tested, without having to assume BB to be accurate.

Your "dembski" method or "design hypothesis" has no such predictions. It has no such evidence. It's not even a hypothesis. A hypothesis actually makes testable predictions.

If you think this dembski method DOES make testable predictions, which CAN be objectively and independently tested, then by all means: mention them.

Irrelevant,
The specific point that I made in that comment is that claiming that the BB fails because we don’t know the mechanism that caused it is a terrible objection.

Just like the claim “because we don’t know the mechanism used by the designer, ID fails” is a also terrible objection. You might have countless of other objections, but do you agree on that this specific objection is a bad objection?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The fact that I can wrongly misinterpret the data does not invalidate the test....

This isn't really about "misinterpreting data". It's rather a case of your test simply being completely useless as it fundamentally argues from ignorance, by principle.


It simply proves that like with any other test one can make wrong assumptions and reach wrong conclusions.

Here's the thing: your assumptions need to be well motivated.

Let's go back to your own (false) analogy of dating methods.
The half-life of elements are assumed to be accurate when testing a sample.
But those assumptions are very well motivated. And testable by themselves.

Whereas YOUR assumptions, in this "design detection method", is really just an appeal to ignorance.

To give an example, if a sample is contaminated then you will get a wrong result when dating it with radiometric dating.

Another false analogy.

But that doesn't mean that radiometric dating doesn't work, it simply means that people can wrongly assume that there is no contaminstion.

Again, contamination (or not) is not something that is "just assumed". Once more: assumptions need to be well motivated, and not just an appeal to ignorance.

So in summery
Yes one can misinterpret the data and wrongly assume that something has the attribute of SC

But the DNA sequence that @tas8831 gave you DOES have the "attribute of SC". That's exactly the point. Knowing how the sequence originated, doesn't make the resulting sequence any less "complex" or "specified". These are properties of the existing sequence - no matter how it came about.

This is how your "method" is flawed. The entire purpose of identifying "specified complexity" in fact, is to serve as a method to FIND OUT how it came about.


So by saying that it looses this "attribute" if we discover that it had natural origins, then all this amounts to is "things are designed except when we find out that they aren't.

It's utter horse crap.

But that does nothing to invalidate the claim that SC can only come from a mind.

Except that it does.
The mutation that made the sequence function didn't reduce the "specificity" or "complexity" of resulting sequence. The resulting sequence is what it is and it has the properties that it has, no matter if a supernatural unicorn constructed it pre-planned particle by particle, or if it was assembled through natural chemistry.

I'm totally in agreement that the physical properties of existing objects can give us clues concerning if they are natural objects or artificially created objects, but clearly this "specified complexity" nonsense isn't such a metric.


Granted, It could be the case that I wrongly claimed that something has the attribute of SC and therefore wrongly proclaim design.

See, this just seems wrong.
To repeat: "specified complexity" is supposed to be a quality / property / attribute of an existing object. Kind of like a description of its shape, whereabouts, composition,...

Now, you are saying that if an object is found to be "specified and complex" then you can conclude it is designed. Unless you find out that it isn't designed. And then suddenly, it isn't "specified and complex" any more?

This just doesn't make any sense. What were you basing your initial judgement on, that it was specified and complex, before knowing how it came about?

Literally EVERYTHING about the object stays the same both before and after you discover it was produced by a natural process. But now you say that if it is known to be produced by a natural process, then it isn't "specified and complex".


So really, it's quite clear that to you, "specified and complex" is SYNONYMOUS with "designed".
While "designed" is supposed to be a conclusion from a premise where things are identified as "specified and complex".

This leads to the very interesting notion that this entire "dembski" method, really is just an assumed conclusion coupled with an argument from ignorance.


You follow?

But this mistake is detectable, you can always correct me
This shows that the test is testable and falsifiable.

No. It shows that the test is useless and fallacious.

Which is I don't claim 100% certainty, but as I explained before it seems possible (more likely than not) that the first living thing had the attribute of SC

Which is a very strange thing to say, because you don't even know what first life looked like.
So not only do you appeal to ignorance because of science not having discovered how life can originate, but you are also literally just "declaring" that first life was SC, while not even having any access to such life to study.

This is the epitome of making stuff up.

This claim could be reinforced or falsified as scientist discover new stuff... Again IDists make testable and falsifiable claims.

False.

When you refer to scientists discovering new stuff, you are referring to scientists working in the field of abiogenesis. They aren't studying or testing your invalid fallacious claims. This nonsense doesn't even come up in their line of work.

You are literally saying here that your mere "declaration" from ignorance should be seen as the default until scientists actually answer the question of how life can come about.


YOU have NO test for your nonsense. Your "test" amounts to nothing more or less then an appeal to scientific ignorance. And when scientists actually close that gap, I'm sure you'll find another gap to fill without your invalid logic.

Granted that is a possibility

So, how do you propose to find out if it is?
If only you actually had a positive test FOR your nonsense which would yield POSITIVE evidence in support of your argument, instead of only pointing fingers at the failings of other ideas and the propping up of negative evidence, like in a good ol' argument of the gaps....

That's false the claim that SC can only come from a mi d is objective and testable.

How was it determined that it is?
How is that testable?

So as the claim that life has thus attribute

Except when you find out that natural mutations produced the specificity and complexity. Then suddenly it isn't specificied / complex, apparantly.
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
Yes, apparently you have to know whether it was designed before you apply the filter.
Like when Dembski acolytes have to know whether or not a DNA sequence is a gene before assessing whether or not is has CSI...
That is an unjustified assertion,

Yes you do need to know if the DNA secuence is a functional gene (and/or other properties of the stuff of interest)

No you don’t have to know if a priori if it was designed.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
BUT YOU ONLY KNOW THAT BECAUSE I TOLD YOU!
.
Yes and I can only know the average speed of a car if you tell me the distance and the time. But so what? Why is that a problem?

Weeks ago we already agreed that one can’t apply Demskies test unless you know some data. It is your turn to justify why is that a problem. You keep asserting without any justification that one needs to know a priori of the stuff was designed before using the test, so ether justify that objection, or find a different objection.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Irrelevant,

I don't think it's irrelevant to point out that the BB theory makes ridiculously detailed testable predictions, while the dembski nonsense does not.

All but irrelevant, it provides me with a justifiable rational as to why it is rational to consider BB fairly accurate while dembski nonsense can be considered nonsense.

The specific point that I made in that comment is that claiming that the BB fails because we don’t know the mechanism that caused it is a terrible objection.

And in doing so, you conveniently ignored the ACTUAL GOOD reasons for accepting bb theory.
Which incidently is also the reason why the dembski nonsense has no good reason to be accepted.

Just like the claim “because we don’t know the mechanism used by the designer, ID fails” is a also terrible objection.

So I guess it's a good thing then, that it's far from the only objection.

You might have countless of other objections, but do you agree on that this specific objection is a bad objection?

No, actually. And the reason for that is because your analogy is invalid.
Big bang theory actually provides an explanatory model for why the universe looks the way it looks (CMB radiation, expansion,..).
Just like evolution theory explains the mechanism by which life develops.

We don't know how life started either, but that doesn't stop us from unraveling the mechanism by which species originate.

What mechanism does your ID model address?
What testable predictions does it make?
What does it learn us about which set of facts?
How does it expand our understanding about how reality works?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Again pyramids are not alive, they are not self replicating organisms with genetic structure that changes with time and create new proteins from multiple ways of altering a portion of the genetic code. Termites can make termite mounds. Termites have the genetic capacity for change and to be able to pass on those changes, their mounds do not. Non living objects have no meaning in the discussion about how life diversified.

The justification is that you have no evidence for the intelligent designer or evidence to show the way the intelligent designer works. Even with all of the yet unsolved issues with evolution there is at least evidence for the mechanism for change. Even if something seems complex to us and ID people say the probability is low, the ability of genetic material to change exists and the probability is not zero thus it can happen and did. The reality is that genetic material changes with time and creates new proteins. There is absolutely no other evidence than genetic change to explain the diversity of life on Earth. You have provided only opinion that a magical god can do this and you did not answer all of my questions!
Compare this to the complete lack of any evidence showing a designer is at work. You have provided nothing other than opinion and inadequate attempts to find fault with evolutionary theory. Once an ID person has evidence showing the ID designer is making changes then you have an empty argument.
The lack of evidence for the Intelligent Designer and evidence of how that ID'er makes the changes leaves the ID with and empty with the major flaw of no evidence only imagination.
The point that I made with pyramids was that you don’t need to know the mechanism used by the Egyptians in order to conclude that they were designed. In the same way you don’t need to know the mechanism used by the designer to create life, in order to infer design.

Do you agree with this specific point?

You might have thousands of other objections but do you grant that this particular objection is bad,
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
No you don’t have to know if a priori if it was designed.

Apparantly you do.....

As said in the previous post I replied to....

A functional DNA sequence that is the result of mutation while not knowing how it came about, would qualify as "specified and complex".
And you have just declared that "specified and complex" can only come from "design".

But then you discover the natural origins of the sequence. Nothing about the sequence under investigation has changed though. It still has all the same properties. And suddenly it isn't "specified and complex" anymore, because you found out that it wasn't designed.

So being of natural origins, ONLY FOR THAT FACT ALONE, an object is ruled out as "specified and complex". No reason, no rhyme.

Just declaration.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Yes, apparently you have to know whether it was designed before you apply the filter.
Like when Dembski acolytes have to know whether or not a DNA sequence is a gene before assessing whether or not is has CSI...
That is an unjustified assertion,

Yes you do need to know if the DNA secuence is a functional gene (and/or other properties of the stuff of interest)

No you don’t have to know if a priori if it was designed.
But...

Don't you claim that function is a hallmark of design?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
BUT YOU ONLY KNOW THAT BECAUSE I TOLD YOU!
Yes and I can only know the average speed of a car if you tell me the distance and the time. But so what? Why is that a problem?
Suppose I claim to have a device - a filter, if you will - that can tell me the average speed of a car without knowing the distance or the time that it traveled, it just tells me the average speed.

And you say, 'Wow, fantastic! How does it work?'

And I say, 'Well I just input some attributes of a car traveling at a certain average speed, and it tells me the average speed.'

And you say 'OK, demonstrate. See that car? What is its average speed.'

And I say 'OK, but you have to provide me with some attributes of the car traveling at that average speed, like how far it has driven and during what time frame.'
Weeks ago we already agreed that one can’t apply Demskies test unless you know some data.
Weeks ago we already agreed that all Dembski's filter is good for is determining whether or not a human did something, since it relies on human contrivances as yardsticks.
It is your turn to justify why is that a problem. You keep asserting without any justification that one needs to know a priori of the stuff was designed before using the test, so ether justify that objection, or find a different objection.
Why not just demonstrate an application of the filter without having to know a priori if it exhibits the attributes of human design?
 
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