A question to Muslims about apostasy

[keithnurse]

I have heard that the punishment for a Muslim who decides not to be Muslim anymore is death. The scholar I learned this from is at www.islamqa.com

Here are the articles I mean:
Islam QA - Some of the rulings on apostasy and apostates

Islam QA - Why death is the punishment for Apostasy

Other Muslims have told me "no, no, no. Death penalty for apostasy cannot be Islamic because it contradicts Qur'an which says "there is no compulsion in religion". You are listening to extremist Muslims". I told a very conservative Muslim about this conversation and she said "the penalty for leaving Islam is death. That is no secret. Muslims who say it is unIslamic want to deny the truth"
I am wondering, can any Muslim on here name a recognized Islamic scholar who publicly denies in his writings that death is to be the punishment for leaving Islam? Can you name a website where I can find writings by scholars that say that? If there aren't any then I would have to conclude that death IS the true Islamic punishment for leaving Islam.

 

[keithnurse]

I just found this article by an Imam:
Ýmam Yahya Hendi

 

[.lava]

I have heard that the punishment for a Muslim who decides not to be Muslim anymore is death. The scholar I learned this from is at www.islamqa.com

Here are the articles I mean:
Islam QA - Some of the rulings on apostasy and apostates

Islam QA - Why death is the punishment for Apostasy

Other Muslims have told me "no, no, no. Death penalty for apostasy cannot be Islamic because it contradicts Qur'an which says "there is no compulsion in religion". You are listening to extremist Muslims". I told a very conservative Muslim about this conversation and she said "the penalty for leaving Islam is death. That is no secret. Muslims who say it is unIslamic want to deny the truth"
I am wondering, can any Muslim on here name a recognized Islamic scholar who publicly denies in his writings that death is to be the punishment for leaving Islam? Can you name a website where I can find writings by scholars that say that? If there aren't any then I would have to conclude that death IS the true Islamic punishment for leaving Islam.

death penalty for ex-Muslims do not exist in Qur'an. it is a false belief but practiced by some as if it is command of God.

.

 

[Fatihah]

I have heard that the punishment for a Muslim who decides not to be Muslim anymore is death. The scholar I learned this from is at www.islamqa.com

Here are the articles I mean:
Islam QA - Some of the rulings on apostasy and apostates

Islam QA - Why death is the punishment for Apostasy

Other Muslims have told me "no, no, no. Death penalty for apostasy cannot be Islamic because it contradicts Qur'an which says "there is no compulsion in religion". You are listening to extremist Muslims". I told a very conservative Muslim about this conversation and she said "the penalty for leaving Islam is death. That is no secret. Muslims who say it is unIslamic want to deny the truth"
I am wondering, can any Muslim on here name a recognized Islamic scholar who publicly denies in his writings that death is to be the punishment for leaving Islam? Can you name a website where I can find writings by scholars that say that? If there aren't any then I would have to conclude that death IS the true Islamic punishment for leaving Islam.

Response: It is a good thing that you are trying to analyze both sides of the argument before you draw a conclusion and I encourage you to keep doing so. My only issue is to not draw a conclusion simply based on the fact that you can not find a writing by a scholar that says that death is not the punishment for apostasy. Such an concept would be insufficient evidence as to whether or not death is the actual punishment.

You should for study the qur'an and see what the qur'an says. For better understanding of the qur'an, you should refer to the sunnah of prophet Muhammad. By doing so, you should reach your answer, insha'Allah (If Allah wills it).

 

[yousaf]

there are many hadith in bukhari itself which inform us about death penalty, there is a chapter in bukhari shareef just about hot to deal with apostates

 

[AbuKhalid]

death penalty for ex-Muslims do not exist in Qur'an. it is a false belief but practiced by some as if it is command of God.

.

But the Quran is not the only source for Sharia. The Quran tells us to pray but it does not say we must do it 5 times daily and it does not say how, so if you where working on the presumption that only something in the Quran can be lawful then it wouldn't be compulsory to pray 5 times a day. There are many more such examples. Sharia derives also from the Sunnah and Ijma.

Apostasy is punishable by death and I am sure if you searched about long enough you could find those who say it isn't but then if you searched about long enough you could find people who say all kinds of things which are contrary to Islam. Sadly nowadays too many Muslims are trying to make Islam more pleasing to the non Muslims and although this is done with good intentions in many cases (such as for Dawah) it is still wrong.

Fear Allah, not the kuffar.

 

[YmirGF]

Apostasy is punishable by death and I am sure if you searched about long enough you could find those who say it isn't but then if you searched about long enough you could find people who say all kinds of things which are contrary to Islam. Sadly nowadays too many Muslims are trying to make Islam more pleasing to the non Muslims and although this is done with good intentions in many cases (such as for Dawah) it is still wrong.

Fear Allah, not the kuffar.

Well said, my friend and welcome to RF. Allah akbar!

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

But the Quran is not the only source for Sharia. The Quran tells us to pray but it does not say we must do it 5 times daily and it does not say how, so if you where working on the presumption that only something in the Quran can be lawful then it wouldn't be compulsory to pray 5 times a day. There are many more such examples. Sharia derives also from the Sunnah and Ijma.

Apostasy is punishable by death and I am sure if you searched about long enough you could find those who say it isn't but then if you searched about long enough you could find people who say all kinds of things which are contrary to Islam. Sadly nowadays too many Muslims are trying to make Islam more pleasing to the non Muslims and although this is done with good intentions in many cases (such as for Dawah) it is still wrong.

Fear Allah, not the kuffar.

So in a place like America or Europe do you believe that Muslims should be allowed to kill people who leave Islam?

 

[kai]

But the Quran is not the only source for Sharia. The Quran tells us to pray but it does not say we must do it 5 times daily and it does not say how, so if you where working on the presumption that only something in the Quran can be lawful then it wouldn't be compulsory to pray 5 times a day. There are many more such examples. Sharia derives also from the Sunnah and Ijma.

Apostasy is punishable by death and I am sure if you searched about long enough you could find those who say it isn't but then if you searched about long enough you could find people who say all kinds of things which are contrary to Islam. Sadly nowadays too many Muslims are trying to make Islam more pleasing to the non Muslims and although this is done with good intentions in many cases (such as for Dawah) it is still wrong.

Fear Allah, not the kuffar.

i would be interested if you could put your reasons for the statement "Apostacy is punishable by death" in simple terms for us Kuffar and other Muslims to see and understand. there seems to be a lot of missunderstanding on this subject.

 

[AbuKhalid]

So in a place like America or Europe do you believe that Muslims should be allowed to kill people who leave Islam?

No. The individual Muslim cannot just go around killing those he deems guilty of crimes. This can only be done within an Islamic state after due process:

On apostasy
Salam alaykum:
There has been differences of opinion on the English lexical meaning of "apostasy" and "apostate" as well as the Arabic equivalents. I will use the English words on the bases given by their definitions in Webster's, together with the Arabic lexical and legal definitions for the words "murtadd" and "ridda."
From Webster's New World Dictionary & Thesaurus:
apostate: a-pos-tate n. [ME apostate, apostata < OFr apostate & ML apostata < LL(Ec) apostata < Gr(Ec) apostates < Gr, deserter, rebel] a person guilty of apostasy; renegade adj. guilty of apostasy n. — Syn. renegade, one of little faith, backslider, defector; see deserter, traitor. See heretic, heretical, impious, rebel, recreant, scab, skeptic, turncoat
apostasy: a-pos-ta-sy n., pl. -sies [ME apostasie < LL(Ec) apostasia < Gr apo-, away + stasis, a standing: see STASIS] an abandoning of what one has believed in, as a faith, cause, or principles See defection, desertion, disloyalty, heresy
Are the semantic equivalents of apostate and apostasy also found in the Arabic words murtadd and irtidad which respectively correspond to them?
The words apostate and apostasy can be equally translated into Arabic respectively as kafir or murtadd, and as kufr or irtidad.
The Arabic word murtadd applies to a Muslim who publicly declares kufr or unbelief -- we seek refuge in Allah -- by so stating or by denying a fundamental tenet of creed -- such as Allah's angels -- or definitely abandoning or denying a fundamental obligation in the Religion such as prayer (salat), or acting in a way unmistakably tantamount to unbelief such as prostrating to an idol.
The Law considers irtidad not an exercise of personal freedom -- as the West construes atheism and "agnosticism" in its own societies -- but a crime and declaration of war against Muslim society, which is duty-bound to protect itself from its consequences. This is a condition of irtidad as established by the Prophet's statement -- Allah bless and greet him:
"The blood of a Muslim is illicit to shed except for one of three reasons: a married adulterer must be stoned; one who wilfully commits murder must be put to death; and a man who comes out of Islam and fights Allah and His Prophet must be put to death or crucified or banished from the earth."
It is narrated with transmission chains of trustworthy narrators from `A'isha by al-Nasa'i and Abu Dawud in their Sunan and al-Bayhaqi in al-Sunan al-Kubra. This hadith explicitly makes "fighting Allah and His Prophet," i.e. fighting Islam and Muslims, a condition sine qua non for punishability by death. For then the murtadd becomes the same as an enemy soldier in wartime (muharab), i.e. an enemy of Islam on the battlefield.
The Arabic words irtidad and ridda apply to the occurrence of the above situation. In addition, ridda has been used in the term "war of the Ridda" by the historians to denote the war in early Islam against the Arab tribes who withheld the remittance of the alms-tax to the State and whom the State fought but without declaring them disbelievers.
The public dimension is essential for irtidad to take place. When one succeeds in keeping the matter to oneself, as in the spiritually disintegrated mass of Western societies, then irtidad has not been verified and one is not considered a murtadd although he has become an unbeliever -- may Allah protect us. As for one who professes and observes Islam but harbors unbelief without publicly declaring it is not a murtadd but a munafiq or dissimulator.
The munafiq is not a kafir in the eyes of the Law and must be treated as a Muslim up to and including burial rites and inheritance status, while the murtadd is a kafir in the eyes of the Law and is subject to the penal law (hadd) that applies to the murtadd as enforced only by the Islamic state.
It is forbidden for individuals to enforce any penal law or act of war whatsoever whether in the presence or in the absence of an Islamic state except by lawful mandate, but the latter can be de facto, as in the case of a people's legitimate defense against aggression.
One who professes Islam without observing its obligations and prohibitions nor harboring unbelief is neither a murtadd nor a munafiq nor a kafir but a fasiq or depraved person -- may Allah guide us and you.
Irtidad is an open rending from within of the fabric of Muslim society which is responsible for repairing it immediately, just as it must repair and counter the harm of depravity. As defined by the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- irtidad is a declaration of war against Muslim society from inside it. This is confirmed by the fact that irtidad is a public act bearing on all of one's social and private contracts, not a private exploration conducted in a philosophical vacuum. And Allah knows best.

 

[AbuKhalid]

i would be interested if you could put your reasons for the statement "Apostacy is punishable by death" in simple terms for us Kuffar and other Muslims to see and understand. there seems to be a lot of missunderstanding on this subject.

That apostasy is punishable by death is the Ijma (consensus) of the scholars of Islam. If something is Ijma then it is accepted and all Ijma is based on the Book and the Sunnah. There was never any debate within Islam about this issue until quite recently when the modernists began to try changing Islam.

 

[YmirGF]

That apostasy is punishable by death is the Ijma (consensus) of the scholars of Islam. If something is Ijma then it is accepted and all Ijma is based on the Book and the Sunnah. There was never any debate within Islam about this issue until quite recently when the modernists began to try changing Islam.

Thank you again, AbuKhalid, that is most instructive and mirrors what I have read elsewhere. :yes:

 

[.lava]

But the Quran is not the only source for Sharia. The Quran tells us to pray but it does not say we must do it 5 times daily and it does not say how, so if you where working on the presumption that only something in the Quran can be lawful then it wouldn't be compulsory to pray 5 times a day. There are many more such examples. Sharia derives also from the Sunnah and Ijma.

Apostasy is punishable by death and I am sure if you searched about long enough you could find those who say it isn't but then if you searched about long enough you could find people who say all kinds of things which are contrary to Islam. Sadly nowadays too many Muslims are trying to make Islam more pleasing to the non Muslims and although this is done with good intentions in many cases (such as for Dawah) it is still wrong.

Fear Allah, not the kuffar.

i am not allowed to tell lie to make people love Islam. what are you talking about? this is not first time someone giving me salaat as an example. performing salaat did not start with Qur'an or hadith books. Adam (PBUH) did perform salaats, Noah (PBUH), MOses (PBUH) and all the Prophets you can name they all did perform salaats because sharia of God does not change. and YES the source of sharia is Qur'an because hadith books contain fake hadiths but Qur'an does not have any added and changed sentences. it is your duty to search Qur'an if someone elses life was threatened by your practices. you are talking about taking life of someone and compare it with your personal daily practices. how are those two even similar to you? people are given free will to make their own decisions. free will is given by God not to make people kill each other. Qur'an says Sharia of Allah has never changed. what is it gonna be then? if a Christian leaves Christianity he should be killed? same with followers of Moses (PBUH). so people are basicly slave to the religion of their nation? where they were born? we do not choose where to be born. according to your understanding and belief, it is much better if people pretend to be Muslims. cos if not they would get killed and you think this is law of God? wanna live then you must be a liar and you call that sharia and calling me a liar with good intentions. wake up already. in many verses Qur'an tells bad things about those who pretend to be Muslims to make more money, to be powerful...etc. you know those verses and still fall to believe people who were born in an Islamic land deserves to die if they leave Islam. so you suggest they should not and for their own interest they should pretend to be one. i am sorry but this is a failure. if you believe in this you have nothing to do with sharia of God because God does not like those who pretend. God does not love cruel either. and also what an individual believe is something private between that individual and God, not other people. Islam is not an ideology and we are not communist maniacs.


.

 

[.lava]

Dear Muslims, if you are truly want to follow footsteps of Mohammad (PBUH) please listen to me just as a friend. i am not a Imam or a religious leader. i am just a Muslim and i am willing to follow footsteps of Mohammad (PBUH) even if entire world agrees to kill all Muslims, i do not care. i am not gonna give up Islam but also i am not gonna give in to false beliefs that exposed by religious leaders. these leaders are helping cause of evil.

i pay double attention to you and i try not to get in arguements with you. reason is i can not see you and arguing would not let anyone see. therefor i suggest you to read original text of Qur'an and do not let some leaders make thinking process for your behalf cos they are no different then you. you've got to use your own intellect then listen to people and by doing it so you would distinguish which Imam is inviting hell and which Imam is inviting heaven. this is end times, there are way too many religious leaders who's inviting hell. beware of them. PLEASE. you are my brothers and sisters and i love you so much, only your love for Mohammad (PBUH) on its own is so precious to me.

i know that i can not force you see through my eyes. but i will try to explain how i see it. Qur'an says "let there be no compulsion in religion. once a Muslim friend here said that it means no compulsion to convert people to Islam but once they are Muslims there are rules to follow and there should be compulsion. it sounds like there is some logic in this but in fact this is very illogical. because with the very same logic if i say "there is no water in my house" my sentence would be interpreted as "there is no water in my house but there is once you enter". this is a failure. meaning of one open sentence does not become its exact opposite.

now this friend here says if one leaves Islam his punishment is death. do you really think it is a given permission to us? do you really think the religion of Islam is a worldly matter? read this;

88/Al-Ghâshiyah &#8211; 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26:
So remind them &#8211;You are only one who reminds. You are not a dictator over them&#8211; Save the one who turns away and disbelieves. Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment. Verily, to Us will be their return; Then verily, for Us will be their reckoning.

10/Yûnus &#8211; 99:
And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed (that is, would have comprehended reaching Allah by heart), all of them together. So, will you then compel mankind, until they become believers?

religious leaders of today who says that people who leave Islam should get killed ARE DICTATORS. Allah says Habibullah is just a reminder. if he was a reminder and a witness then what are those leaders? do they know better then Mohammad (PBUH)? do they know better then Allah? do they really care to follow footsteps of Mohammad (PBUH) or they just want to rule an empire where they can practice their second handed ideology that abuses the name of Islam and Mohammad (PBUH)?


.

 

[.lava]

That apostasy is punishable by death is the Ijma (consensus) of the scholars of Islam. If something is Ijma then it is accepted and all Ijma is based on the Book and the Sunnah. There was never any debate within Islam about this issue until quite recently when the modernists began to try changing Islam.

i am sorry brother but i must say ISLAM DOES NOT NEED MODERNIZATION, yet appearently some religious leaders needs Islamization in case they really claim to be Imams of Allah.


.

 

[AbuKhalid]

i am not allowed to tell lie to make people love Islam. what are you talking about?

Sorry if I was unclear but this was not addressed to you but was rather a general point in relation to how some people are indeed misrepresenting Islam to make it more appealing to Muslims.

this is not first time someone giving me salaat as an example. performing salaat did not start with Qur'an or hadith books. Adam (PBUH) did perform salaats, Noah (PBUH), MOses (PBUH) and all the Prophets you can name they all did perform salaats because sharia of God does not change

You misunderstood my point. You initially claimed that "death penalty for ex-Muslims do not exist in Qur'an. it is a false belief but practiced by some as if it is command of God." which imlpied that the reason there is no death penalty for apostasy was simply because it was not in the Quran. I merely pointed out that this in itself could no be taken as proof as there where other things which had to be taken into account.

The reason I used Salat as an example was because it is true as you said that we have always had Salat however it was because of Ahadith that we know we pray 5 times a day. The Quran does not say this. So if we used only the Quran as our source for Sharia rulings then we would still have to pray but not 5 times.

YES the source of sharia is Qur'an because hadith books contain fake hadiths but Qur'an does not have any added and changed sentences. it is your duty to search Qur'an if someone elses life was threatened by your practices.

Are you a from the Quranite sect who completely reject the Sunnah and Ahadith? If so then we wont agree on this issue.

If not then you are completely mistaken. Sunni Muslims believe that the sources of Sharia are the Quran, the Sunnah, Ijma, Qiyas, Istihasan, al-maslaha al-mursalah, Ijtihad and Urf.

Now I will agree with you that we go to the Quran first, but if something exists in the Sunnah and the Quran is silent on the issue then what is said in the Sunnah is binding.

hadith books contain fake hadiths but Qur'an does not have any added and changed sentences

Yes but the Sharia isn't based on fake or weak Hadiths and the apostasy law is backed up by strong Hadiths.

you are talking about taking life of someone and compare it with your personal daily practices.

No I wan't and I think you know so. I was making a point about the Quran not being the only source of Sharia and used Salat as an example as it would be the issue most people are aware of.

how are those two even similar to you?

Where have I stated that they are similar?

people are given free will to make their own decisions. free will is given by God not to make people kill each other.

Yes free will was given but there are also set punishments for particular crimes which result in the death penalty. If you argument is that a person is entitled to do anything because of free will then you must be against all punishments, including for murder, rape, theft and anything else. At least that is where your logic tends to lead.

Qur'an says Sharia of Allah has never changed. what is it gonna be then? if a Christian leaves Christianity he should be killed? same with followers of Moses (PBUH).

I dont really get your point. The details of the Sharia have changed although its essence and source remain the same. Also the Christians and Jews dont follow the Sharia.

so people are basicly slave to the religion of their nation? where they were born? we do not choose where to be born. according to your understanding and belief, it is much better if people pretend to be Muslims

This has nothing to do with weather or not apostasy is punishable by death. If someone is a Muslim and apostates then they should be killed. If they apostate in their hearts then they are Munafiqs. If they do that then maybe in their earthly life it will be better for them but in the hereafter the munafiqs will be condemned to the lowest levels of hell.

cos if not they would get killed and you think this is law of God?

Well it is the Law of God. Somehow you believe that your subjective opinion gets to over rule the concensus of the Ulaama throughout history. So if you don't think that it is the Law of Allah then you must believe that all the Scholars who have lived since the time of the Prophet (SAAW) until quite recently, including those from amongst the Sahaba where wrong. Is that what you are saying?

wanna live then you must be a liar and you call that sharia and calling me a liar with good intentions.

Not at all. As I explained I didn't call you a liar and I don't think you are one. I do however think you are completely mistaken on this issue. What you might feel in your heart has no weight in this argument. If you believe your position is correct then present the Sharia evidences to back it up.

in many verses Qur'an tells bad things about those who pretend to be Muslims to make more money, to be powerful...etc. you know those verses and still fall to believe people who were born in an Islamic land deserves to die if they leave Islam.

Yes I do know these verses but again you are steering off topic. Those who pretend to be Muslims are the worst of people, but this doesn't make the open apostates any better than they actually are - the two groups should be dealt with in different ways.

so you suggest they should not and for their own interest they should pretend to be one.

No I don't. If they are apostates then I would encourage them to come forward and accept their fate rather than staying as an enemy within.

i am sorry but this is a failure.

Its no such thing. It is the Sharia of Allah and it is perfect in every way.

if you believe in this you have nothing to do with sharia of God because God does not like those who pretend.

Pretend what. I have not said anything which is simply my own opinion. In every instance I have given my reasons (based on Sharia) for why I uphold what I do. You on the contrary base your argument on your own feelings.

God does not love cruel either

No He doesn't. However if you are implying that those who execute apostates are cruel then what about the Sahaba? What about all the righteous Muslims throughout history who have applied this ruling? What about all the Scholars who supported it? Are they all cruel and thus unloved by God?

God does not love cruel either. and also what an individual believe is something private between that individual and God, not other people

I agree. But once their apostasy become evident and public then it effects the Muslims at large and they are subject to be executed.

Islam is not an ideology and we are not communist maniacs.

Islam is an ideology. It is a complete system to govern every aspect of our lives.

 

[kai]

That apostasy is punishable by death is the Ijma (consensus) of the scholars of Islam. If something is Ijma then it is accepted and all Ijma is based on the Book and the Sunnah. There was never any debate within Islam about this issue until quite recently when the modernists began to try changing Islam.

well i have only one thing to say , do Muslims really need enemies from outside Islam? self inflicted damage is far more destructive.

 

[AbuKhalid]

well i have only one thing to say , do Muslims really need enemies from outside Islam? self inflicted damage is far more destructive.

Its not at all. This issue isn't in the least self destructive as their is agreement on it, apart from a minute minority.

 

[kai]

Its not at all. This issue isn't in the least self destructive as their is agreement on it, apart from a minute minority.

thanks for that clarification.

 

[Gharib]

So in a place like America or Europe do you believe that Muslims should be allowed to kill people who leave Islam?

it is our governments responsibility, not of the people. but since we do not have a leader (caliph) no one is responsible to kill anyone.