A question for Theists

[ratikala]

namaskaram , ...

This thread's been great, thankyou @ratikala.

thank you , ....and without you Guys there would be no conversation so thaky you too to eveyone who has contributed , ...and cone back @Lyndon , ....all is forgiven

The experience of God is the thing of beauty, the zenith, all this other stuff people go on about, is God everything or a part of everything, inside or outside the universe, personal or impersonal, male or female or neither, what details, what trivia, when that matter is is the existence of God, why waste time with such little things, just open yourself up to God, drink God like water.

I think you have are exibiting some very Viasnava like tendancies here , which I sha'nt complain about in the least , ...

so let us return to your statment ...

The body is a temple, and your body is the world...

But certainly, people make things sacred, and in that state of mind we can more easily feel the sublimity of the divine.

please please expand , ...

in what way do you see the Body as a temple ?

interconectedness ? how do you see our conection to the world and the worlds conection to the supreme ?

do we make sacred or do we realise the sacredness ?

Ohh and please please expand in any way on the sublimity of the divine , how and when you feel it

 

[Kirran]

thank you , ....and without you Guys there would be no conversation so thaky you too to eveyone who has contributed , ...and cone back @Lyndon , ....all is forgiven

That's about as far as fallings-out go around here ratikala you're like our resident pujari, you just hang around cheerfully loving God

I think you have are exibiting some very Viasnava like tendancies here , which I sha'nt complain about in the least , ...

Ah, good, converting me to the One True Faith hahaha. no such thing

please please expand , ...

With pleasure.

in what way do you see the Body as a temple ?

Well, a temple is where you go to worship God, it's the venue and the channel through which your worship, through which you acknowledge divinity.

And where do we go besides our body? That's how we perceive the world, it's how we interact with reality, it's the only tool though we can come to God. So always we are at that temple, and should take care of it as a temple if we want to come to God more clearly.

interconectedness ? how do you see our conection to the world and the worlds conection to the supreme ?

Interconnectedness, yes, but even more than that. For things to be interconnected, they have to be separate, there have to be things to be interconnected. But this is illusion, everything is one, this time and space stuff is all in the head, everything's one point, one object, or even less than an object, as an object has dimensions. It's infinitely small and massively large at once.

do we make sacred or do we realise the sacredness ?

Sacredness is a quality we experience, like sweetness, spiciness, yellow, green. I think sacredness is different for different people - an out-and-out New Atheist wouldn't experience sacredness in a church, a Christian wouldn't experience sacredness at a mandir. But we can generate that sacredness within a particular group of people, or more than that, for people you think will appreciate it, through acts like setting up the temple, getting a murti and keeping it clean etc.

Ohh and please please expand in any way on the sublimity of the divine , how and when you feel it

How do I feel it? How unfair to ask me to explain the unexplainable ratikala! But I love you for your sheer happiness in God, so I'll answer anyway

I feel it as an immanence, as a sense of presence, as a sense of 'here is existence, this is being' and the sense of connection to that, the sense of connection to the greatness, the being, and the sense of how God's presence is ubiquitous. This is obvious, because all is God. Why does the mind persist in wandering?

When do I feel, at various times, and at different strengths. Through stillness and presence that contentment and being-there-now can be felt, and that's growth towards a constant awareness of unity, of God, but at rare occasions it's felt more strongly, more ecstatically, be it after reading a quote about it, or being in the sunrise, or cultivating it to arise through awareness, but too-much awareness, forced awareness. I think ultimately it's healthier for the spiritual path to do in the first way, and once I do that much of the time, to intensify it. A long way off!

Going to temple this evening, going to bring a couple avocados to offer, hope it's enough.

 

[rrosskopf]

Jesus is not Jehovah, there is nowhere in the Bible where that is even implied.

That isn't entirely true. Jesus is never, not even once, referred to as the son of Jehovah. Nor is he referred to as the Son of the Lord. Instead, he is called Lord. It is also clear that the New Testament writers, when quoting old Testament scriptures about Jehovah, used "Lord" to replace the sacred name. They make no distinction between Jesus and Jehovah.

In Deuteronomy, chapter 32, verses 8 and 9 we read...
"When the Most High assigned lands to the nations, when he divided up the human race, he established the boundaries of the peoples according to the number in his heavenly court."
"For the people of Israel belong to the LORD; Jacob is his special possession."

The LORD here is the Tetragrammaton or Jehovah; he is not the Most High, but was assigned by the Most High to be the God over Israel. I am using the New Living Translation, because it includes the corrections afforded by the Dead Sea Scrolls. Either through misunderstanding, or careless translators, these verses were changed sometime after 70 AD.

ELYOWN is the Hebrew word for the Most High, meaning God the Father.

 

[rrosskopf]

I've been born and raised Christian (though Pentecostal and not Mormon) and I've never heard this POV.

Courtesy of one of my favorite Christian authors, Margaret Barker. She is fairly popular among Mormons, since the Book of Mormon largely corroborates her POV. Within the Book of Mormon are quotes from preexhilic scriptures, books that did not survive to modern times. They show that the coming of a Son of God was taught long before the actual birth of Jesus.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Kirran ji

That's about as far as fallings-out go around here ratikala you're like our resident pujari, you just hang around cheerfully loving God

Ah, good, converting me to the One True Faith hahaha. no such thing

what no one true faith , ....of course not , ...there is only God consciousness

With pleasure. ......

Well, a temple is where you go to worship God, it's the venue and the channel through which your worship, through which you acknowledge divinity.

And where do we go besides our body? That's how we perceive the world, it's how we interact with reality, it's the only tool though we can come to God. So always we are at that temple, and should take care of it as a temple if we want to come to God more clearly.

very nice ...I will be running out of smilly faces soon we only gets 7 chances .

question , .....What about Paramatma residing within ?

Interconnectedness, yes, but even more than that. For things to be interconnected, they have to be separate, there have to be things to be interconnected. But this is illusion, everything is one, this time and space stuff is all in the head, everything's one point, one object, or even less than an object, as an object has dimensions. It's infinitely small and massively large at once.

but in Quality and Quantity , is there not difference between us and God ?

Sacredness is a quality we experience, like sweetness, spiciness, yellow, green. I think sacredness is different for different people - an out-and-out New Atheist wouldn't experience sacredness in a church, a Christian wouldn't experience sacredness at a mandir. But we can generate that sacredness within a particular group of people, or more than that, for people you think will appreciate it, through acts like setting up the temple, getting a murti and keeping it clean etc.

and sacredness within the self as an experience , ...a relationship with God as an experience ?

How do I feel it? How unfair to ask me to explain the unexplainable ratikala! But I love you for your sheer happiness in God, so I'll answer anyway

I feel it as an immanence, as a sense of presence, as a sense of 'here is existence, this is being' and the sense of connection to that, the sense of connection to the greatness, the being, and the sense of how God's presence is ubiquitous. This is obvious, because all is God. Why does the mind persist in wandering?

are you feeling that all is god ? ...or has someone told you all is God ? so we start to look for God , ....thenwe begin to find his presence everywhere , ...

When do I feel, at various times, and at different strengths. Through stillness and presence that contentment and being-there-now can be felt, and that's growth towards a constant awareness of unity, of God, but at rare occasions it's felt more strongly, more ecstatically, be it after reading a quote about it, or being in the sunrise, or cultivating it to arise through awareness, but too-much awareness, forced awareness. I think ultimately it's healthier for the spiritual path to do in the first way, and once I do that much of the time, to intensify it. A long way off!

certainly one canot force awareness just let it come and when one catches Glimpses of it , ..rejoice that simple happiness seems some how to open things up in a very simple way , ....it is like when one stops actively trying and one just naturaly responds , ...suddenly doors open , ...

Going to temple this evening, going to bring a couple avocados to offer, hope it's enough.

''offer me with love , a fruit , a leaf , a flower , and I will accept , ''.......the love is the vital engreedient , ...if ever anyone turns up their nose at a simple offering they are not a pujari at heart

hope you had a beautifull evening , ...

 

[allfoak]

In the mind of the one God there are many gods.
To say that i am a theist would be correct and incorrect.

 

[Kirran]

very nice ...I will be running out of smilly faces soon we only gets 7 chances .

Use things like this -

question , .....What about Paramatma residing within ?

Yup, there it is. Just as everywhere. Ultimately, all we experience is within, so we're experiencing Paramatma, Brahman, within.

but in Quality and Quantity , is there not difference between us and God ?

Not really, I don't think so.

I could not exist in this form I am in if it weren't for all the rest of existence, all the rest of what we can call God, being just as it is. So from me, we could track back to all of God, just as we could from any object, so in that sense everything is all of God, as well as a part.

and sacredness within the self as an experience , ...a relationship with God as an experience ?

An experience up until, some say, moksha, which may or may not be an experience.

are you feeling that all is god ? ...or has someone told you all is God ? so we start to look for God , ....thenwe begin to find his presence everywhere , ...

A little of both, I think. I've read various things which agree with my own intuition and reasoning that all is what we can call God. In terms of actually feeling, my only personal conception of the divine is in everything, I can't really conceive of a God separate to anything.

hope you had a beautifull evening , ...

Missed the bus

In the mind of the one God there are many gods.
To say that i am a theist would be correct and incorrect.

Are you saying that God is composed of many gods, or that God imagines many gods?

 

[allfoak]

It is our fate as eternal souls to one day converse with God as a god ourselves.
If we live and have our being in the mind of God then there is no other fate that is possible.

 

[Kirran]

It is our fate as eternal souls to one day converse with God as a god ourselves.
If we live and have our being in the mind of God then there is no other fate that is possible.

What constitutes a god, small G, in this perception?

 

[allfoak]

The eternal soul and spirit of man.

 

[Kirran]

The eternal soul and spirit of man.

So are you a god now?

 

[allfoak]

So are you a god now?

Even a fool knows enough not to respond to a question like that.

 

[Kirran]

Even a fool knows enough not to respond to a question like that.

Well I was just curious as to what you meant.

 

[allfoak]

It is the story of the prodigal son.
The oldest son (the spirit) stays with the father.
The younger (the soul) goes into the far country.
The younger returns and they rejoice.

The spirit of man never leaves the father but the soul ventures out into the far country.
We exist in the Mind of God.
You figure it out.
Are we gods?

John 10: 34
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'?

Psalm 82:6
"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Kiran ji

Use things like this -

its a chicken ???prehaps they have changed the rules but it usad to be only 7 smilies or chikens per post , ...and any how they have done away with my favorite one , ...'Namaste ' ...face with folded hands , ....

Yup, there it is. Just as everywhere. Ultimately, all we experience is within, so we're experiencing Paramatma, Brahman, within.

now my veiw differs a little here , ...ultimatly the supreme resides within the heart of all beings as the supreme is all pervasive , yet due to our embodied nature we are forgetfull of our true nature the Paramatma is often likened to a small spark which originates from the supreme ,therefore there is seperation , the spark is of the same nature there fore it is Qualitively the same , however it is not Quantitively the same , thus the Vaisnava will allways see himself as subordinate to the supreme as the supreme is never deminishes and never forgetfull of his position , ....

Not really, I don't think so.

to a Vaisnava the supreme is allways supreme , ....even though we are embued with the same nature , still there is seperation although we say ''inconceivable oneness and difference ''. ......say you were to meditate upon the nature of God , ....and pray with sincerity for all obsticals to the knowing of God to be removed , ....would you not be totaly awe struck by God and his endlessness , his sheer glory ?...ok one could say oh yes I am this , ...but we are only the minuteest portion , ...he is this in magnifcent fullness , ...is there not a slight difference ?

A little of both, I think. I've read various things which agree with my own intuition and reasoning that all is what we can call God. In terms of actually feeling, my only personal conception of the divine is in everything, I can't really conceive of a God separate to anything.

not seperate but also distinct ?

Missed the bus

Oh No , ....try again next week , ...the deities want those avocados , they heard your offer , they will be waiting for some little treat

 

[Kirran]

its a chicken ???

There's no fooling you

prehaps they have changed the rules but it usad to be only 7 smilies or chikens per post , ...and any how they have done away with my favorite one , ...'Namaste ' ...face with folded hands , ....

Let's see -

now my veiw differs a little here , ...ultimatly the supreme resides within the heart of all beings as the supreme is all pervasive , yet due to our embodied nature we are forgetfull of our true nature the Paramatma is often likened to a small spark which originates from the supreme ,therefore there is seperation , the spark is of the same nature there fore it is Qualitively the same , however it is not Quantitively the same , thus the Vaisnava will allways see himself as subordinate to the supreme as the supreme is never deminishes and never forgetfull of his position , ....

to a Vaisnava the supreme is allways supreme , ....even though we are embued with the same nature , still there is seperation although we say ''inconceivable oneness and difference ''. ......say you were to meditate upon the nature of God , ....and pray with sincerity for all obsticals to the knowing of God to be removed , ....would you not be totaly awe struck by God and his endlessness , his sheer glory ?...ok one could say oh yes I am this , ...but we are only the minuteest portion , ...he is this in magnifcent fullness , ...is there not a slight difference ?

OK, so what I'm getting here is that you're saying that Paramatma, God etc is in everything, but that doesn't mean they are everything?

Interesting to think of things like that, interesting to see how you feel that connection to the divine in a different way, when you're connecting to it inside you as opposed to realising your synonymity with it.

not seperate but also distinct ?

God distinct from us? From my cat? From my porridge oats? No, I don't think so, not for me. Maybe only in our thinking.

Oh No , ....try again next week , ...the deities want those avocados , they heard your offer , they will be waiting for some little treat

OK, I'll try again, they'll get some avocadoes!

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Kiran ji

There's no fooling you



Let's see -

Hmmm the rules have changed looks like we are allowed to smile freely these days , .....

OK enough frivolity , ...serious questions , .....

OK, so what I'm getting here is that you're saying that Paramatma, God etc is in everything, but that doesn't mean they are everything?

the supreme pervades all living beings , but each living being is not the supreme in his fullness , ....

God distinct from us? From my cat? From my porridge oats? No, I don't think so, not for me. Maybe only in our thinking.

think about it this way, ....the supreme is unborn , unoriginated and unending ,... he is eternaly Blissfull and full of Knowledge , we by our very nature are not in full knowledge therefore we are sepperate from that supreme , were we not , ... there would be no supreme , ...were there no inferior there would be no superior , for there to be a supreme there must be seperation , ...?

OK, I'll try again, they'll get some avocadoes!

jai jai

 

[Kirran]

Namaskaram ratikalaji, good to see you again, you've been away for a while!

Hmmm the rules have changed looks like we are allowed to smile freely these days , .....

Good positive vibes on RF nowadays.

OK enough frivolity , ...serious questions , .....

This in itself made me laugh

the supreme pervades all living beings , but each living being is not the supreme in his fullness , ....

How does it pervade? For example, the smell of incense pervades the room, but isn't the room itself. Is it like that?

think about it this way, ....the supreme is unborn , unoriginated and unending ,... he is eternaly Blissfull and full of Knowledge , we by our very nature are not in full knowledge therefore we are sepperate from that supreme , were we not , ... there would be no supreme , ...were there no inferior there would be no superior , for there to be a supreme there must be seperation , ...?

I see, that's interesting, and I can understand it pretty well, I think. So when you're connecting with God, you're becoming more in tune with his nature, but not becoming God.

For me, it's different, partly because God isn't personal for me. Brahman = Ishvara.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Kiran ji

Namaskaram ratikalaji, good to see you again, you've been away for a while!

just a little amount of day to day stuff that seems to take up so much time and by the time i get to look throuth the posts I am quite tierd , .....so I only want to post on the positive ones , .....but please give me a @Kirran ...nudge if any good subjects come up , ...I still havent got used to the new system on this site and I think I miss some threads ?

This in itself made me laugh

Hee Hee , ..laugh is Good leveler , ...we all need to come back down to ground , occasionaly , ...correction ..A Lot ! ...too much High horse stuff going on here and everywhere , ...too much interlectualisation and not enough learning , ...not enough empasiss placed upon experience , ....and not enough accknowledgement of the simple fact that every experience changes our perception , ...well it should , ....so what use is there in all these statments here , so many people quoting some scripture as if it is difinative , ....no it is there to help ine to examine the subject , ....
we should be asking more questions Questions are good , ....even people who think they Know , ....can still benifit from questions .

How does it pervade? For example, the smell of incense pervades the room, but isn't the room itself. Is it like that?

jai jai , ...it is often said that ,..''.the brilliance of the sun pervades and illuminates , dispelling the darkness of ignorance''
so what is the Sun ? why do we use this analogy ? , ...prehaps it is the most powerfull energy we can identify , evey think we know depends upon it our planet revolves around it we are nourished by it as without its light and warmth we would have no food , there would be no life as we understand it , but it is also so powerfull that it can scorch and burn we are at its mercy , ....everything we know depends upon it , it is the life force nothing is more powerfull , ...its power pervades all life , ...but we are not the Sun , ..we are not even mini Sun's

likewise Sri Krsna says ...''everything rests upon Me'' ....he then goes on in chapter 8 of the Gita to explain that he is the essence of all things , ...'' I am the taste of water , the light of the sun and moon , the syllable OM in the Vedic mantras . I am the sound in ether and ability in man'' ......here quite clearly Krsna is saying he is the ability , he is not saying I am man , ...so for man to say 'I am that '' is a statment of our ultimate natute , our potential to realise this true nature , ...it is not saying that I myself am divine , it is saying that we have the potential to realise our divine atributes , but that those divine atributes are God who has given us these divine atributes so that we may realise Him .

this in a way is like saying we are pervaded by the warmth of the sun our very life depends upon it , ...it makes all sentient life possible , ...yet we do not have its power , ...without it we become cold and sad as soon as it shows in the sky we joyfully rush out to greet it , .....

to me this is how we should be with God however we see him he is the supreme controller .

I see, that's interesting, and I can understand it pretty well, I think. So when you're connecting with God, you're becoming more in tune with his nature, but not becoming God.

jai jai , .....you have it perfectly , ...like the sun which is the material support of this universe , the Superme is the ultimate support which goes beyond the material realms , the Supreme is the support of an eternal cycle of universes , he is the energy behind the creation and the dissolution of countless universes , ...these cycles to him are like the cycle of the breath , it is said that he exudes universes from the pores if his skin , ..so yes this is a natural cycle if we were to be scientific we could say that it is like convection a plant drinks water from the soil , it exudes it through its leaves as water vapour that vapour rises to join the clouds in the sky whic anain eventualy watter the soil , ..this is the cycle of life it is infinatly complex and vast as is the true nature of God , ....

therefore to me I canot say ....''I Am That '' ....to me this is a gross over simplification , nor can I say that the Supreme is Formless or impersonal , this to me is equaly an over simplification

For me, it's different, partly because God isn't personal for me. Brahman = Ishvara.

Hee Hee , .... I canot tell you what to think , ...today prehaps he does not appear to be personal , ...but like all experiences this might change , ...only Ishara can control this if he wants you to see him then he will appear

But please do not forget to tell your sister when you see him​

 

[Kirran]

just a little amount of day to day stuff that seems to take up so much time and by the time i get to look throuth the posts I am quite tierd , .....so I only want to post on the positive ones , .....but please give me a @Kirran ...nudge if any good subjects come up , ...I still havent got used to the new system on this site and I think I miss some threads ?

I know the feeling, the hills are calling to me ever-more strongly. You know I want to be a sadhu, right?

And of course, if I see something I think our resident bahkta will be interested in I'll be sure to let you know

Hee Hee , ..laugh is Good leveler , ...we all need to come back down to ground , occasionaly , ...correction ..A Lot ! ...too much High horse stuff going on here and everywhere , ...too much interlectualisation and not enough learning , ...not enough empasiss placed upon experience , ....and not enough accknowledgement of the simple fact that every experience changes our perception , ...well it should , ....so what use is there in all these statments here , so many people quoting some scripture as if it is difinative , ....no it is there to help ine to examine the subject , ....
we should be asking more questions Questions are good , ....even people who think they Know , ....can still benifit from questions .

All a different way of doing religion I guess, you and I are into the mystical side, as it's called, whereas others prefer scripture. For me scripture, is never infallible.

Questions are always good, wherever and however they're asked.

jai jai , ...it is often said that ,..''.the brilliance of the sun pervades and illuminates , dispelling the darkness of ignorance''
so what is the Sun ? why do we use this analogy ? , ...prehaps it is the most powerfull energy we can identify , evey think we know depends upon it our planet revolves around it we are nourished by it as without its light and warmth we would have no food , there would be no life as we understand it , but it is also so powerfull that it can scorch and burn we are at its mercy , ....everything we know depends upon it , it is the life force nothing is more powerfull , ...its power pervades all life , ...but we are not the Sun , ..we are not even mini Sun's

likewise Sri Krsna says ...''everything rests upon Me'' ....he then goes on in chapter 8 of the Gita to explain that he is the essence of all things , ...'' I am the taste of water , the light of the sun and moon , the syllable OM in the Vedic mantras . I am the sound in ether and ability in man'' ......here quite clearly Krsna is saying he is the ability , he is not saying I am man , ...so for man to say 'I am that '' is a statment of our ultimate natute , our potential to realise this true nature , ...it is not saying that I myself am divine , it is saying that we have the potential to realise our divine atributes , but that those divine atributes are God who has given us these divine atributes so that we may realise Him .

this in a way is like saying we are pervaded by the warmth of the sun our very life depends upon it , ...it makes all sentient life possible , ...yet we do not have its power , ...without it we become cold and sad as soon as it shows in the sky we joyfully rush out to greet it , .....

to me this is how we should be with God however we see him he is the supreme controller .

OK, yeah that makes sense, I see what you're saying, and nice to see how your views tie in with the Gita.

jai jai , .....you have it perfectly , ...like the sun which is the material support of this universe , the Superme is the ultimate support which goes beyond the material realms , the Supreme is the support of an eternal cycle of universes , he is the energy behind the creation and the dissolution of countless universes , ...these cycles to him are like the cycle of the breath , it is said that he exudes universes from the pores if his skin , ..so yes this is a natural cycle if we were to be scientific we could say that it is like convection a plant drinks water from the soil , it exudes it through its leaves as water vapour that vapour rises to join the clouds in the sky whic anain eventualy watter the soil , ..this is the cycle of life it is infinatly complex and vast as is the true nature of God , ....

That's a very nice analogy, and a wonderful set of imagery about the sheer power and omnipotence of the Supreme, it really resonated with the breathing for me.

therefore to me I canot say ....''I Am That '' ....to me this is a gross over simplification , nor can I say that the Supreme is Formless or impersonal , this to me is equaly an over simplification

For me, simplification is what we're trying to achieve in knowing God

Hee Hee , .... I canot tell you what to think , ...today prehaps he does not appear to be personal , ...but like all experiences this might change , ...only Ishara can control this if he wants you to see him then he will appear

But please do not forget to tell your sister when you see him

Certainly, my perceptions may very well change, and, as long as I'm still connected with RF at the time, you'll be among the first to know my dear ratikala